Yes you play the waiting game. Let her come to you with what she wants and then you will have a chance to respond. What is discussed with your lawyer is none of her business.
It's funny though cause during BD, she actually said something along the lines of 'we have nothing in common. If we weren't married would we even be friends or talk to each other?'
That is the point of relationships...enjoying the differences. My lady does not fish, but she enjoys watching me fish.....I enjoy watching her sing Karaoke...but would not go if she wasn't into it.
Originally Posted by Terapin
I do however think I"m being too friendly/available to her.
Most of us are. There are ways to be friendly that are not needy. There are so many ways to increase our behavior to be more attractive. Pulling away is one of them. There is an art to it. I enjoy the seduction side of relationships. From my ladies responses, I believe she does as well.
Originally Posted by Terapin
I'm sure at some point this week she'll want to have another 'talk'.
So I really like this statement:
Originally Posted by JordanPeterson
What do you do when you get married? You take someone who’s just as useless and horrible as you are, and then you shackle yourself to them. And then you say, we’re not running away no matter what happens…If you can run away, you can’t tell each other the truth…If you don’t have someone around that can’t run away, then you can’t tell them the truth. If you can leave, then you don’t have to tell each other the truth. It’s as simple as that, because you can just leave. And then you don’t have anyone to tell the truth to.
So if you do have another talk, use that statement as a guidline for YOUR LISTENING SKILLS. Do not preach it. Do not use it to keep her tied to you. Be the safe person she can talk to, even if you completely disagree. Listen to understand her. Her story. She is a fascinating person. This is a rare skill.
As you do this, take note of all your feelings you have. Process them later. Example:What made you feel angry? Most likely a growth opportunity.
If she mentions anything about being friends again, I'm going to reply with Nick Nolte's quote in 48 Hours 'we ain't brothers, we ain't partners, and we ain't friends'. lol
Like I said last week, I can feel myself detaching more every day. Not that I don't want to save the M, but the thought of D is no longer 'scary'. I've spent 20 years trying to meet all of her needs, while she rarely puts any effort into meeting even one of mine. I'm too old for that crap.
W left her ipad on the table and this morning i logged in. Did a quick search history and it seems she was looking at 'how to win full custody' websites last night. Guess it's time to prepare for war and drop the carefree 'as if' attitude.
You should definitely prepare. This is a business deal gone sideways and you should be working towards the best fair deal for you.
Part of that effort is your attitude. No need to stoop and become adversarial. Such, will likely not get you further towards your wanted goal / outcome / decisions.
Keep emotions out of this. Keep ego out of this. No need to turn it in to a war, when some cordial negotiating could/will achieve the desired results.
Originally Posted by Terapin
W and I seem to agree on most things (selling the house, dividing debts, 50/50 custody). No spousal or child support, and we each take our student loan debts.
Perhaps, W has reconsidered her custody position/offer. Or perhaps she only temporarily felt that way. Or perhaps she was surfing to see how not lose her half. And so on.
Information gained by snooping is usually coloured by one’s emotions. It is difficult to know the why based upon the few data points one uncovers. And snooping stirs up one’s own emotions which has the risk of prompting action or a change in direction based on the limited inference rather than follow the established facts and rational path one previously decided upon. If things change, if new information truly comes to light, then adjust.
Originally Posted by Terapin
I told her I'd consider giving her my vehicle in exchange for some household assets.
She asked if I would help pay her lawyer fees, as well as the filing fee. I just laughed.
Many times W has expressed concern and fear over her lawyer fees and associated costs of divorce. Her suggestions of helping her with such costs, is an area of negotiation.
Remove your ego from this equation. Consider what assets you are wishing for and those you are more willing to let go. A few thousand dollars invested in W’s legal bills might garner you much more in things you value.
That was a missed opportunity to ask what she was willing to give up for her to have no legal bill. Her answer might surprise you. Folks exiting relationships do place value upon some strange things. Some even so far as their freedom and no responsibilities over shared custody. I’m not suggesting W is there, my point is you are surmising her list of wants based upon the person you knew. It takes a bit of finesse to discover what she values/wants right now.
You’ve spoken to a lawyer. You know the default position in all this. You have opportunity to adjust that default, to give and take between the two of you. So far, W hasn’t sounded like she is looking for war. Don’t push her into one. That’s usually more a lose/lose outcome.
What do I do after that? Just continue to DB and play the waiting game till she files? Tell her what my L had to say regarding the stuff she asked me to consider (custody, debt division, etc)? Wait till she brings stuff up again?
1) Wait till she brings it up 2) STFU and listen 3) at the end respond with "Thanks for sharing. I need time to process what you have said." or something similar. Do not share your thoughts, plans or ideas at this point. 4) Speak with us and get legal advise. 5) Come up with an action plan. 6) execute the plan.
Now? Keep on DBing. your divorce is still in the 'all talk' phase. Many never make it out of that phase.
I just read about Art Carney. The actor. His wife divorced him in 1965. He was devastated. He resorted to drugs and alcohol. He even remarried. In the 70s he finally got on with his life. He won an Oscar. And then in 1980, he and his first wife remarried and were married until his death.
It looks like you are exiting the denial stage and are moving into the anger stage. This is part of the process you have to go through. Unfortunately there are no short cuts. I know you don’t believe this now but in time you will adjust to seeing your son less. You will see him less but the time you spend with him will be more meaningful and fulfilling. It’s hard to see now but in time you will understand.
It doesn’t make sense to the LBS how they are willing to give up half their time with their children. We have seen some here willing to give them a way. That’s how unhappy they are right now. Only time will tell if you were the sole reason for her unhappiness.
Sounds like your meeting with L was successful. Knowledge is power. I suspect you now feel less anxious regarding possible future events.
This is all business. And when dealing with the business side, stick to business. Keep your emotions out of these major decisions and remain rational and logical. Your lawyer and her advice will be invaluable in this regard, as she is not embroiled in the situation and will have a good business perspective.
Originally Posted by Terapin
My biggest concern is my son, and she said 50/50 is almost guaranteed. My other big concern was our debt. Our normal debt (credit cards, etc) would be split, but her $170,000 student loan would go with her. I wouldn't/shouldn't be responsible for any of it. She said since W makes more money, has a higher earning potential, and has more in her 401k than I do, the only one that could receive alimony or child support would be me if I wanted to pursue it (I don't), and I'd be entitled to the difference in our 401k's (about $6000). She also laughed when I told her about W tellign her lawyer about speeding the process along due to a 'lack of physical intimacy'. She said even if she files, the process will go as fast or as slow as I want.
Your biggest concern is custody. Something to consider, if it comes to it, negotiate not taking the $6000, even forgoing other things (alimony, child support) for a guaranteed 50/50, none of her student loans, and obviously not a contentious and expensive divorce.
Let W do the heavy lifting here. If/when she asks if you’ve read her paperwork, you can answer yes. If she wants to know where you stand, you can tell her you don’t want a divorce, and yet you won’t stand in her way. If she keeps pushing, tell her to provide a written proposal and you will look it over. Do not show your cards. You let her make the moves and initiate things. You just respond - after speaking with lawyer and such.
Such is the business side of this journey.
D
Thanks D. Yes, I feel a lot better today than I did yesterday. It's going to cost money, it's going to suck, but at least I shouldn't be financially devastated over this.
L said it would be crazy if I didn't get 50/50.
That's good advice on when she asks about my stance, telling her to give me a proposal. Again though, I don't want to come across as a jerk, so if she keeps pressing eventually I'm going to have to talk about some of those things.
These next few days will suck though. Tonight son has a school function that both of us will attend, and tomorrow he has a game which we'll go to. I mean, I'm sure it'll be fine, but tough to GAL, DB, etc when we have to be together for these things.
I hate to say this, and maybe it's just a passing phase, but I'm feeling a little more 'detached' than I've been since this started. It would still be my goal to work on the M. But either way I'll be fine. We've been together almost 20 years. I by no means have been husband of the year. But in reality, despite a lot of very good qualities she has, she's kinda treated me like [censored] since we've met.
You are welcome to post and ask questions regarding divorce and it’s proceeding. A few things for you to consider:
You aren’t presently divorced. W might push for it, she might delay it, it might even fall off her radar for a while. You are gaining knowledge of the process, letting her lead, and responding when needed is all.
Reconciliation can still occur even after a separation/divorce. Divorce does not necessarily constitute the end. As long as there is love, there is hope. You can still divorce bust even when divorced or preparing for one. Divorce/separation is just the business side of all this. The emotional/healing journey is the true landscape of DB.
One of the first harsh truths of divorce busting is that DB can/will absolutely save you; the marriage is a bonus. The reason is pretty evident, it takes two for a marriage and only one for a divorce.
Embrace DB, become the best possible you. A man only a fool would leave. It’s not a guarantee, however it is pretty much the best chance at reconciling.
Hang in there T. And keep posting. It does get better.
D
Thanks. Appreciate it.
It really pisses me off that she's been secretly stashing money to prepare for this. She certainly doesn't seem bothered by what this is going to do to our son, our family, friends, me, etc. It's all about how she 'feels'. I'm so mad that our son is going to go from living in a beautiful home in a great neighborhood to splitting time between two apartments or slum houses.
Every day I develop more and more resentments for her. I don't think I'd ever want to reconcile. I've put up with her crap for far too long.
I say 'babble' because her saying our son would be better off having his world shattered is ridiculous. The same as when she rewrites our history. Back when I thought we had a chance, I would have listened and validated. But I'm not going to give her that satisfaction now since all of our lives are upended because of her weekly subjective sense of 'happiness'.
My W said the same about my D11. She felt D11 would be better off with the divorce. I said no divorce unless something really bad is happening will be better for the kids. My daughter is now devastated. I’m happy as can be to not be living with W anymore and looking forward to meeting a lady that is a better match for me but my kids are suffering and it [censored]
The justification and excuses they come up with to make themselves feel better is amazing.
Seriously, has there ever been a psychological study on the walkaway wife? Husbands too. It has to be common enough for it to be classified as some sort of mental disorder
I hated handing over $200, but I think it was well worth it. Kudos to my W though, cause she had basically everything printed out and organized for the lawyer. My biggest concern is my son, and she said 50/50 is almost guaranteed. My other big concern was our debt. Our normal debt (credit cards, etc) would be split, but her $170,000 student loan would go with her. I wouldn't/shouldn't be responsible for any of it. She said since W makes more money, has a higher earning potential, and has more in her 401k than I do, the only one that could receive alimony or child support would be me if I wanted to pursue it (I don't), and I'd be entitled to the difference in our 401k's (about $6000). She also laughed when I told her about W tellign her lawyer about speeding the process along due to a 'lack of physical intimacy'. She said even if she files, the process will go as fast or as slow as I want.
I didn't pay the retainer fee yet, but if W continues with this I'm confident in this lady. She also said W's lawyer is very reasonable and likely wouldn't push to fight for much.
I’d suggest paying the retainer fee and asking your lawyer about being served and the legal process in your locale.
Having legal representation from early on can prove very beneficial if things take unforeseen turns. And it is less stressful upon you, as you have a lawyer looking after the details, paperwork, filing, deadlines, and such (oh, there is so much to disentangle when dissolving a marriage). With that looked after, you just provide certain decisions when those times come along.
From my layman’s understanding, and my experiences, being served means W has actually filed the divorce petition before the courts. You are being served notice of needing to respond. Yes, the details of the proposal would be provided, and there is a deadline to it. A timeframe is which you need to reply back to the courts. If you agree with said proposal, you sign and the courts look it over, and likely approve it. If you do not agree, you can counter propose. Of course, this being before the courts limits how long and how many back and forth you and she can make; the court has lots to do and is there to make judgements, not waste time.
Being presented (not served) a proposal from W, or her lawyer, is much more in the realm of negotiating. Basically, usually, her lawyer would send your lawyer a signed proposal of the splitting up of all martial assets. Proposals/splitting/waving of titles, deeds, loans, accounts, investments, vehicles, custody, pensions, homesteader rights, and on and on. Like I previously said, lots to disentangle. (My divorce was really straightforward, and it still accumulated to around 50 pages.)
If W’s proposal is acceptable, you sign, and you have a binding separation agreement. Note, in some locales there is not a legal separation or a one year cool down before divorce, it is just straight to divorced. In this case, this still allows for back and forth negotiating, finding mutually agreement, before presenting to the courts.
If the proposal is not acceptable, your lawyer (with your decisions) makes some revisions, and forwards a signed by you proposal back to W’s lawyer. If she agrees, she signs, and the binding agreement is done.
This review and revision can continue as long as you two want. Each modifying the proposal. Ethical lawyers will coach you as to what is likely to just prolong things, while less than stellar lawyers will be more than happy to be confrontational while racking up billable hours. No point fighting and spending thousands over a toaster. (My lawyer’s upfront retainer/fee/cost was a flat fee for everything that would be needed to get a separation agreement outside of a courtroom. If we ended up in court, those hours would be charged above that.)
With a signed by both parties separation agreement, the lawyers also sign and swear they provided individual legal counsel, and you entered into this agreement of your own volition and free from coercion. The document is filed before the courts and you are separated.
There is a year long cool down period, in which if the partners live together for 90 days, the separation agreement automatically becomes null and void. Nothing legally has happened, after all you are still married during this time.
After the one year cool down period, then either party can file for divorce. Neither has to, and without filing you are legally married and separated. Some folks find this position fulfils certain religious requirements of their’s. However, when one files, it now truly goes before the courts and they rule upon it. If they agree with the separation, the divorce is granted and becomes legal, dissolving the marriage.
When I went through my separation and divorce, I had no idea what the process was. And I was pretty darn emotionally compromised too.
Divorce will likely be the biggest financial decision of your life. My advice is to hire a lawyer and offload the work horse portion of this business to one who actually does this stuff for a living.
