First off, I want to thank everyone here who has shared their stories and given their time to help people work through their relationship issues. The information here has been invaluable in helping me navigate through my situation.
I came across this forum after reading Michele’s book about a month and a half ago. I’ve read through a bunch of the threads and have tried to implement as much as possible. Here’s my story. Married almost 18 years, together for 22. High school sweethearts. Have a S19, D17 and D4 (adopted), and we also have a 6yr old who we were foster parents for who does not live with us, but we still support a bunch. My story is similar to many on here, married young, W has a bunch of childhood trauma, I did not provide enough emotional support to W, slowly drifted apart just going through the motions of life, I didn’t recognize the severity of the red flags and blew them off, W finally had enough of living in a house of negativity and feeling unloved.
The last straw for W came in late May. I was getting ready to go out of state to work for a few months. Family was going to meet me for the last half of the trip. Two weeks before leaving, W said we need MC or we’re getting divorced. I was trying to get the house ready (painting, fixing things, etc) so they would be set while I was gone. I have never been against MC, and actually welcomed it, but I thought it was too short notice to start something and said we could do it when I got back in 2 months. In hindsight, that was where things ended. I didn’t know it at the time, but per my D17, as soon as I left the state, W started with MLC/WAW type behavior. Staying out until 4-6 am, lost a bunch of weight, not eating, shopping, ignoring the kids, on phone 24/7, etc. D17 basically was playing mom for D4. I was told by W that everything was peaceful without my negativity. She felt that way, but rest of family did not.
In early July, family came to visit and this was when I first realized things were serious. W would not even hug me when I she first got there. She remained distant for the 2 weeks they were there creating an awkward situation I did not yet understand. When we got back home, July 22, got the “official” BD. ILYBINILWY, we need to figure out a separation, etc. I made the common mistakes at first (cried for 3 days, begging, trying to nice her back, promises, etc) not knowing it was way too late for that and counterproductive. Thankfully I found DR book pretty shortly after that and was able to correct some things. My main purpose for adding my story here is to get help with certain things that come up and as a source of support since the few I’ve reached out to don’t really understand the DB process.
She is struggling big time. She might appear to hate you, but underneath she’s respecting you for being a man. She’s angry because she’s uncomfortable.
Now all you have to is stick at it for months, perhaps years before she wakes up - and also stick with it, in the knowledge that she may still leave even if you DB like a boss.
It‘s a marathon, not a sprint. Can you ignore her baiting and tantrums for months/years? As soon as you bite, she wins.
Now forget about her, and go do something for yourself. Gym, bike ride, hike, work on your car, go out with friends, go on a tour…. The world’s your oyster!
I think wearing it again may indicate to my W that I am still attached, which I suppose runs counter to DB principles.
Oh trust me a WW can sniff attachment like a bloodhound. She knows your attached so wear the ring for you if you so wish. When you detach and take the focus off her she will know it and at that point she may start to rethink how she feels about you.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
DW: sorry I don’t have any answers for you. In a similar situation.WW has moved out . Don’t know who to tell and what specifics to say. So learning along with you. Both W and I don’t want to be subject to gossiping unnecessarily and value privacy.
*Validation without sounding robotic. I’ve read the validation thread several times, but it’s hard not to repeat phrases. W has called me out for it and sometimes finishes my sentences.
I don't have to say much with my lady. As long as I focus on listening and understanding how she is feeling, that is enough for emotional validation. I make sure I am aware of my body language, eye contact, facial expressions ect...Pretty much give her my full attention.
At your stage, you can test how much STFU you need. Study her non verbal communication as if she is the most interesting person on the planet. (Do this with everyone you interact with as well).
And she sounds pretty savvy because she is calling you out on the validation. However, that doesn't mean you stop. Both detaching and validating have a simple truth....."Practice makes perfect." So stop using canned responses and really try to understand her feelings. Then validate them. "I feel trapped in this marriage." Response: "Wow, I had no idea it was that bad for you. That has to be a terrible feeling." The suggested responses are simply examples. Quoting them without sincerity or feeling will be sniffed out by the savvy WASs. And detachment is not ignoring. If you're ignoring her you're doing it wrong. Look at it more as just not being the one to initiate interaction. And when she does, interact for a short time, then have places to be and things to do.
Thank you for this response. Validating doesn’t come naturally to me, so I know it’s a work in progress. I'm reading a book right now called The Lost Art of Listening to try and help with that also. I didn’t have emotional support when I was young so I learned to live without it. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help relationships with other people, particularly a W who experienced a ton of childhood trauma. Learning the hard way, but I’ll get there. And I’ve been trying to validate with everyone I interact with as needed, just to improve.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
As far as doing things for her. Here's a question: Do you want her to respect you, or to be your friend? Being a friend to someone you want more with [censored]! And will cause you to behave it was that do not command respect. Most LBS would rather be liked than respected. Which is why there are so many divorces. So stop doing those things. "Can you stop by the store and get me X." "No I don't have time for that." "Can you make me a sandwich?" "No, you can make your own sandwich." "Can you drive me to Y?" "No, that's something a husband does for a wife and you're are firing me as your husband."
She will get upset. She will get angry. She may not even like you for it. But she will respect you.
This helps. It’s hard because she can be demanding at times, but I understand the assignment! Thank you for your feedback. It definitely helps.
Also, do not apologize. This is something LBS struggle with. Notice the responses I listed. They don't say " Sorry, I don't have time." Just "No. I don't have time." Its hard not to apologize, but you definitely shouldn't.
Sorry you’re here. There’s been thousands before you, and there will be thousands after you.
It won’t be okay today… or tomorrow… or next month. But one day, it will all be okay.
I’ll add some more when I’m not working, yet just wanted to make a quick comment around the “your next wife can thank me” and the comments about how you threw it away by not agreeing to marriage counselling before your trip away.
It’s all BS. If you’d gone to MC then, she would have used it to start separation. Or she would have said “I can’t believe you thought we could fix your problems in our marriage in two weeks, you don’t care about me.”
It’s really important to know that whatever you do, you’re in the wrong. You could be the best husband, person and father in the world - and she would still blame you for everything.
Beg - she’ll tell you you’re weak. Walk away - she’ll tell everyone you didn’t try. Agree with her on everything, you’re just trying to trick her into coming back. Disagree with her on everything, and you’re an [censored] and that is why she has to leave.
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU ARE WRONG, SHE IS RIGHT AND SHE WILL SEEK VALIDATION FROM EVERYONE THAT THIS IS YOUR FAULT. You have to learn to be okay with that.
Learn to disconnect. Follow DB principles. Accept she’s going to be angry sometimes. And do not disappear down the tunnel where you are terrified of every interaction like each word you say could be the final nail in the coffin. It’s not like that, and probably no matter what you do, she’s going to do what she’s going to do. Don’t live or interact or respond through fear.
Best of luck. Stop worrying about her, and start worrying about you.
As Steve said, best thing you can do is walk the other way happily. If she realises what she’s throwing away she might come around, and if she doesn’t … you’re already a long way down the road to starting your new life.
I’d think seriously about kicking her out of your bedroom. No sex! If she doesn’t want to be your husband, she can sleep on the couch IMHO. “I’m hearing that you don’t want me as your husband. I’m respecting your wishes. It’s best you sleep on the couch from now on.” And then leave the house before she starts an argument.
DW my suggestion to you is that if a PA is a boundary you have that is real and you are ready to enforce than you should explore all avenues to confirm.
If you find out and do not enforce the boundary than you are better of not knowing and just continue with your 180s.
DW, I cycled between feeling comfortable and fine with whatever happened, to almost panic attacks about losing my marriage. And every point in between. So just realize that the rollercoaster is real. Resolve to never make decisions based on pure emotions.
D it seems like you know the answers to your own questions. You aren’t ignoring her you are just not giving her the answers she wants so she’s fighting back. The minute you engage you lose. Keep focusing on you and the children.
MLC/WAS is about control... ^^^^ they kinda nailed it up there....
Since I'm about the theory of WAS/MLC... I want you to see the 'why' of DBing...
The more in control that you allow them to be, the more that they will take....
The more in control that YOU are, the more that they will spew and attempt to push buttons on you so that you can be the person that they want to leave.
You being happy, and taking back your life is NOT the person that she has described to her friends and anyone willing to listen to her BS.
IF you respond to her pushing your buttons, and you anger, and sulk...
You are essentially becoming the person that she has painted you to be. And you justify her reasons to leave the marriage...
Remove those buttons, and there will be worse days ahead like this. Yet fear not, every time something like this happens, it means you are doing a better job DBing....
It's kind of like a child throwing a tantrum because you wouldn't buy them candy.....you wouldn't give in because they aren't getting their way...
Same principal here....
I've often used an analogy of the Space Shuttle....
The booster tanks that hold fuel during take-off, because of the amount burned during that process. And once the Shuttle is in it's flight pattern, they will fall away....
Same thing now. Her anger is the booster tanks. She has anger to fuel her "takeoff", and she plans to use it to lift off away from you. She will use it to paint you as this incredible monster that stole her life away from her. It's HER truth, not necessarily yours....yet it is extremely important to validate her feelings, even if it's not your truth.
However, once you establish your flight path, you will slowly see the anger fall away.
She is going to try every trick in the book too, to spin you out .....
Remove those buttons (typically it involves the kiddos)....
Recognize it for what it is, while you are in the moment, and you will fare better than worse....
Pretty sure you've seen her flip the 'bithc switch" already. Going from rational to childlike in a split second....
If not ??
This has been a preview for your future viewing pleasure....
W had most kinds of childhood trauma you can imagine. Alcoholic/drug addict parents, dad in and out of jail, kept getting sent to foster homes where she was molested, raped/molested by an uncle (who recently went to jail for murder a few weeks before W gave me BD), dad committed suicide, moved in with different aunt/uncle, with her brother. They raised her and she calls them mom/dad, had a bunch of kids in the house, brother got kicked out of the house due to being a difficult child and sent to live hours away, molested by sibling in her new home, kicked out of this home and sent hours away last year of high school, then moved in with me. She is not in contact with bio mom and talks to brother a couple times a year. Sibling who molested lives across the country. The remaining family she associates with are all good people.
Wow DW17, that's a lot. If anything - and I know it's tough when dealing with the betrayal of a spouse's affair - try to work on empathy towards your W. Doesn't mean you excuse her actions and allow yourself to be disrespected, but give yourself some compassion in knowing there's a very real possibility this has less to do with you than it does your W. Often times people with trauma think they're over it and strive to do better but deep down it's been modeled and it can be so difficult to escape the past. But know that a person's poor behavior is a reflection on them, not you. It's understandable to get caught up in the hurt and anger of the betrayal or blame yourself for it all, but forgive yourself your mistakes and take comfort in the knowledge a very big part of this may not be about you at all.
Originally Posted by DW17
So yeah, a lot going on there and it's horrible. I knew most of this early on, but didn't comprehend the amount of pain this would cause her and what exactly I needed to do to help. W went to therapy as a kid, but never while we've been together. W always just blocked it out and said she was fine. As someone who has done the same thing with events from my past (alcoholic mom and my W's PA), I know that you can't just ignore these things.
It's not unusual to look past the issues of people you fall for, but good you recognize it now and won't sweep them under the rug in the future. These things are very difficult and require a lot of work and dedication. Hopefully you stick with IC and W commits to IC for herself as well, regardless of what happens with you marriage.
Good you took action on the lawyer consultation! It doesn't mean you have to take action, but having the knowledge will empower you and inform your decisions. Also, don't be afraid to meet with 2-3 to make sure you're comfortable.
In terms of the D, here are the major areas:
Child Custody - With your biological kids being 17 & 19 this will be less of an issue for them, but I assume adopted children are the same under the law as biological? Talk to L about that.
Child Support - Again, due to their ages your biological kids won't be a major issue but check on your adopted child. At 4yo it could be a long time (until 18yo, or 21yo in some states).
Spousal Support - Often states have calculators based on length of marriage and disparity of income. Finding a calculator or your L should be able to give you a good idea.
Assets - In the US states are either Equal or Equitable Distribution. Equal meaning divide everything (assets AND debts) in half, equitable meaning take your premarital assets off the table and then divide everything in half. I'm guessing because of the "high school sweetheart" status neither of you had many premarital assets.
I'd definitely talk to L about what actually makes the financial split official. If she's running up credit card bills spending on clothes, makeup, OM dinners and hotels...whatever, can you just section off accounts now or do you need to make a legal filing to cut off her debt from being on you.
BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home.
Make sure you're there for your children and being their rock as their mother goes wild - obviously they're not her priority, and your kids deserve to be someone's priority.
Also...
Make sure that you document the time that you are with them, and what the specifics are. Who is with them, what times and days...
Legally, if it isn't written, it didn't happen...
You may never need to use that, however it best to be safe than sorry...
I kept a calendar with who had custody on what day, then a journal of the days events if anything odd were to happen....
DW, I cycled between feeling comfortable and fine with whatever happened, to almost panic attacks about losing my marriage. And every point in between. So just realize that the rollercoaster is real. Resolve to never make decisions based on pure emotions.
@SteveLW, I had asked you in your thread. Are you taking about now or the situation before piecing?
@DW17, many things in your sitch is not dissimilar to mine. But you are going through more difficulty as your WW is not just displaying classic behaviors (gaslighting, manipulating, deliberating disrespecting) but the enormity of her affair, night outs etc is a lot to handle. Hang in there. Great that you are having an honest discussion with yourself. Stay strong and GAL GAL GAL.
BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home.
Make sure you're there for your children and being their rock as their mother goes wild - obviously they're not her priority, and your kids deserve to be someone's priority.
Originally Posted by DW17
My understanding is that I'm supposed to just say "I hope you have fun" and give her that time and space and basically ignore it.
Not sure I'd say "I hope you have fun", but definitely give her space - you can't stop her from going to the bars and having an affair anyway, as much as you'd like to.
Originally Posted by DW17
My best guess as to the sitch with possible AP is that something physical happened between them while I was gone (That was when W was at her craziest behavior) and that they've been in an EA since then with a possible visit here and there.
Could be. Hate to say this, but it's likely much worse than you think...or what she'll admit to, if she ever does admit to anything.
Originally Posted by DW17
I have seen some of her text messages while she was texting next to me, and it seems like the types of convos you have at the beginning of a relationship.
My then-W would text AP in the same room as me, in my then-S4's bedroom for hours while she was "putting him to bed". She'd say "I'm texting my girlfriend". And she was...but also texting OM1! It was so blatant. Based on the texts she thought she was being slick, but it was painfully obviously. Caught up in some serious fog.
Originally Posted by DW17
She is all of a sudden interested in football, particularly the Bengals (AP's favorite team apparently) after having 0 interest her entire life.
Funny isn't the word, because you're in a serious situation, but I did smile at this one because I came across my then-W having an NFL team's jersey she previously hated because it was OM2's team. They'll flip on a dime and many are chameleons changing colors to match the AP and make the AP feel like they're a perfect match. Google "love bombing".
Originally Posted by DW17
I have proof she was honest with some of the times she was at her friend's houses, including when I drove by, and she doesn't have a ton of other time that's unaccounted for as she usually just stays in bed on her phone at home. But I would be an idiot to assume she’s just hanging out with friends.
Right. And you're not an idiot. You would not believe the extent they'd go to hook up. Mine did physically in the office during work hours (I have proff). Others on here are doing it in a car in an abondoned parking lot. If she's out all night regularly "staying at a friends"....
Originally Posted by DW17
Did you ever confront your W about it or just sit back and wait for her to change
I confronted her several times about it over a few months. It took me about 12hours after BD to confirm an EA with her coworker. Lots of "talks" and pressure. I'd work up a script in my head to deliver about why we should keep the family together and work on our marriage and then deliver it. I kept giving her opportunities to come out with it. First I'd ask "Is there another guy?", then a week or two later it was "I know there's another guy" then a week or two later I'd say "I know there's another guy and this is his name". That shocked her a bit (of course I knew who it was from early on). They spent 3-4hrs on the phone the next day, assuming talking about the implications of me knowing his name and possibly contacting their work or his W. Each time then-W would lie directly to my face. When I named him she said they were just friends and had been for 10 years...funny we were together 8-9 and I'd never heard his name, and he was in her phone with his job title (like you'd type into your contacts if you met some random person). They will flat out lie and deceive you...even if you've known them for decades and you can't imagine them doing it.
Anyway, all that confronting and R talk was before I found this site. It was ill-advised. If I had to do it over I'd seriously consider packing up all her stuff and leaving it on the porch for when she got back "late from work" and serving her papers as she left work with him. That said...I can honestly tell my kids someday if they ask that I made every effort and gave ExW every opportunity to keep the family together and she decided not to. So there's that, which isn't nothing. Your bio kids are old...they know exactly what's up. Just make sure you're the best dad you can be as your W is going off the rails. Your kids (bio and adopted) deserve it.
"Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up."
Sounds like you know what you did wrong - you just have to work on your mental game for the future.
Originally Posted by DW17
This morning I was getting ready for work and W commented that I looked nice and asked if I was trying to impress a girl. I smirked and did not respond.
The smirk and no response was perfect.
Originally Posted by DW17
She then said that I owe it to her to let her know if I’m talking with anyone because I called her out for texting AP in the car with the kids one day about 6 weeks ago and used his name.
You don't owe her anything. She is cheating on you and wants to break up your marriage. Unless she ends her affair and recommits to her husband, you don't give her anything - stay strong.
Originally Posted by DW17
I asked how those two things were related (first mistake, should have walked away).
This is where you started to falter. Don't get into a logical argument about anything. It's not a game you'll win because she's all emotion. It's not an Oxford debate team match.
Originally Posted by DW17
I walked away, was about to leave for work,
Yes...
Originally Posted by DW17
and couldn’t help but respond.
No! You could've helped yourself from responding, but you choose not to. Be stronger and more aware next time.
Originally Posted by DW17
I walked back and said something along the lines of “you can do whatever you want, but texting your “friend” all day long every day, even while lying next to me in bed, is completely disrespectful.”
You're absolutely right - that is disrespectful. But what are you going to do about it? Complaining about disrespect or broken boundaries with no actions is weak.
Originally Posted by DW17
I also said something about how the one thing I asked of her (when I was in the begging stage) was to let me know if there is anyone else because I couldn’t handle going through her cheating on me again.
You asked her to let you know if she was cheating? This sounds super weak. Stand up for yourself.
Originally Posted by DW17
W: You have lost your mind, do not ever come at me like that again. You legit triggered a panic attack and I haven’t done anything wrong! It has been clear that we are still here for the kids and you say one thing one day then come at me like this another day! I literally can’t handle the mental abuse anymore. Pinning me into a corner and demanding information out of me is not the way to go.
You better be very careful about these exchanges. She's accusing you in written format about "come at me", "panic attack", "pinning me into a corner"...you wouldn't be the first to get tagged with a BS domestic abuse charge. Don't brush this off. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but you never know. You should consider starting to audio or video record interactions. Learn the laws in your state about recordings. Some are two party consent, others are one party consent.
Originally Posted by DW17
I literally can’t handle the mental abuse anymore.
Don't buy into the "mental abuse" claim. LH is right...she's gaslighting you! She is cheating on you. Instead of blaming herself and recognizing her poor behaviors she's projecting it all onto you. SHE can't be responsible for her guilt and pain, so you are. Don't let her convince yourself you're a monster.
Originally Posted by DW17
W: Nope, not it’s time to let everyone know who you really are.
Sounds like a very specific threat - prep yourself for things to get ugly. She'll tell her family and friends what a monster you are to justify her actions. Make sure you don't buy into it.
Originally Posted by DW17
This is not your house, it is mine as well…the bed, the couches, everything. If you would like I can make things more difficult for our children and go stay with (girl friend who lives 30 minutes away) if that is easier
Honestly? That sounds ideal. DO NOT MOVE OUT. Let her do the moving. That may be in your best interest at this point.
Originally Posted by DW17
but as far as owing you any explanations of anything in my life other than my children, do not communicate with me.
I agree with her there - honor her wishes and do not engage with her unless it's about the kids. Also, consult with one or more Ls ASAP.
Originally Posted by DW17
You have just lost me 100% friend and all.
She is your W. You don't want her as a friend.
Originally Posted by DW17
Thank you for making me late for work.
Obviously you did not "make her" be late for work.
I did not respond to this.
Originally Posted by DW17
Her staying at her friend’s house was something she was planning on doing early on. I was actually happy she brought it up again.
Yes. If she voluntarily leaves the house on her own, that's ideal. Consult an L ASAP! Make sure you're ready to act if needed around the house and kid.
Originally Posted by DW17
I think it is the best situation as long as she doesn’t bring D4.
Dpon't let her move anywhere with D4. Consult an L. A judge would likely keep the status quo with kid in the house, temprorarily at least.
Originally Posted by DW17
That seems like the best solution, having W go there.
Yep.
Originally Posted by LH19
You are being gaslighted by a woman who if I am reading this correctly is cheating now and has cheated in the past. I think at this point for your sanity it is best that she goes to your friend's house to give you some space.
LH is 100% right. Don't allow her gaslighting to break you mentally. SHE is the one cheating and doing wrong. Time to not engage anymore, and prep yourself for the next round.
