Hi all, I'm new here and no offence, I wish I wasn't here, ha (I know you'll know what I mean by that). I'm so happy to have found this community. I have read the Divorce Remedy, which is how I came to hear of divorce busting. My husband walked out on me in April, the night before our 5th wedding anniversary. In total, we had been together 8 years. One thing I must say up front is there is no other woman. 100% on that.
My husband had a very traumatic childhood and is now in his fifties. His mother walked out when he was 7 and his sister 5. The night he left me, he told me he feels he only has twenty-something years left of life and that he's not happy and doesn't want to spend the rest of his life unhappy. It's all my fault apparently - I was nagging, critical, he couldn't do anything etc. Shortly after he left me, he was diagnosed with ADHD (when by chance I heard a guy on a radio show talking about being diagnosed with the condition as an adult and realised as I listened that my husband had all the same symptoms).
I mention that to explain that our relationship had become a parent/child one as my husband could not be trusted to remember any important tasks. I guess to him, that was me nagging - I'm sure it was, but feel I had good reason. Now of course, I wish I'd done things differently.
We occasionally talk and see other each rarely. However, we are meeting for lunch later today (I live in Asia.) When I see him, he is like a stranger, possessed. Even his eyes look different. But then sometimes there are flashes of the old man I knew. Yesterday, I had to have a hospital procedure done and when he found out, he transferred money to my account to pay for half, without me having asked.
We have no kids, just a dog and two cats. I occasionally send him photos of the animals and he tells me he misses them. He still wears his wedding ring but is adamant the marriage is over on the couple of occasions I've asked if we could please try to fix things (I know...)
What really scares me is that he keeps talking about looking for a new job overseas. I know divorce busting calls for patience but I'm so scared I'll lose him if he moves country before I've had a chance to put any plan into action.
At our lunch meeting later today, I was planning on asking if he'd agree to regular weekly meet-ups just as a way to "stay friends" - otherwise I never know when or if I'll see him, which makes putting any strategy into play very difficult. Is it wise to ask that?
In some places, I read that I should go dark/no contact (particularly as I instigate 99% of our contact). In other places, I read that no contact might work for more casual "dating" type relationships, but not to fix a marriage
Ultimately you have to figure out what works for you. What works is typically counter intuitive. Even the definition of "what works" will change for you as you move through this process.
Would it be better to be scarce and let him miss you, or be in his presence and be the blame of his unhappiness? These are the type of question you can ask yourself.
You have been given a gift (Even if you can't see it now). Take the focus of your H and focus on finding your happy without him.
Thank you so much for your responses and feedback; I truly appreciate it.
So, honestly, I know I sound naïve and may never convince some of you, but there truly, honestly is no other woman. I am fully aware there may be eventually. Right now, there is not. I have so many reasons for saying this and won't go into them all. There have been too many occasions when I have found him/seen him sitting in a bar with a male friend or two at a time when if there was another woman he would be with her.
This is not my only reason for saying this. We have had very honest conversations (please believe me on this) and he has told me more than once that there is nobody else, there was nobody else and he will tell me if there ever is anybody else, before I find out from someone else. Whatever about everything else that has gone on, I believe him on this. I know I sound naïve, there's not much I can do about that.
We live in Thailand, therefore most of the women are Asian. He is not attracted to Thai girls, never has been. That is just another factor.
He recently got back from a visit to friends and family in England, where he's from. On his return, he got straight off a long-haul flight and went to a bar to meet his (male) friends to watch a big game. I know this, because I walked into the bar a few minutes after him, totally not expecting him to be there. He'd been away for 3 weeks. Again, at the risk of sounding naïve, wouldn't the logical thing be for him to go straight from his flight to the other woman? Except there isn't one.
Another way I know: his friends, including his best friend, have talked to me without him knowing. They have told me they think he's losing his mind. They have also told me there is 100% nobody else (which is partly why they can't understand what he's doing).
I'll leave it there, rather than risk having this entire response become me listing reasons why there is nobody else. There just isn't. Fully aware that may change but for now...
You may be 100% correct. Though we've had other LBSs here that were even more adamant that there was no one else. The caution here is to not put all your eggs in that basket. So many LBSs start DBing well under the belief there is no one else, then completely breakdown and forget DBing as soon as there is an OP revealed.
Regardless if there is another person or not, you have to be careful NOT to believe anything he says. Statements like "he said and I believe him because...." are dangerous statements for LBSs to say. If you truly believe there is no one else right now it should have NOTHING to do with what he says. Or what he promises to say in the future. HE IS COMPLETELY UNTRUSTWORTHY RIGHT NOW.
We on this forum have been through this multiple times with multiple LBSs, so you'll have to excuse our skepticism. There never is another person.........until there is. So while you may be convinced of this, it is likely that most of us will not be convinced no matter how adamant you are.
Originally Posted by Reeling
I have tried cutting contact because I was instigating most of it. So I went dark. It achieved nothing. He went dark too. We didn't see, hear, or speak to each other and it broke my heart. He did not appear to miss me - I'm just basing that on the fact that he didn't break NC. I eventually resumed contact as I couldn't see how I could save my marriage if we weren't in contact.
I am confused by what this means? "I went dark. It achieved nothing." This sounds like unrealistic expectations. "If I go dark, then he will start chasing me!" That is not the purpose of going dark. Going dark is for you to STOP pressuring and pursuing, and for you to start to learn to be happy by yourself again. Some call it emotional detachment. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to emotionally detach when you are constantly trying to reach out.
Lots of LBSs do things like "I'll go dark for a week. If I don't hear from them then I will reach out again. Because I am afraid that no contact for an extended amount of time will mean it is over!" This is letting fear guide you. DBing is not about saving the marriage (though most of us come here thinking it is). DBing is about stopping behaviors that will push the WAS away faster. And it is about accepting the inevitable that if the WAS wants a D, then they will eventually D you. DBing will let you move on happy and healthy. SOMETIMES (the % of the time is a hotly debated topic on this forum) it will have the effect of getting the WAS to question what they are doing, and even change their mind. But here is the rub: if you DB in order to change the WAS' mind it will rarely work. You really have to move forward with your life FOR YOU, and sometimes the WAS will decide to come along on the journey too.
What I can tell you is that DBing gives you 100% chance of eventually moving forward from this yourself, and gives you a much better chance of saving your marriage. Versus pressure and pursuit, and all of the activities that come along with that from an intuitive standpoint. Actively intuitively and pressuring and pursuing have almost a 0% chance of working.
Originally Posted by Reeling
I also tried doing a 180 - I flew to New York and stayed with a friend for two weeks. This is a BIG DEAL, it is a journey over nearly 30 hours from here. I did it while he was in England and he was shocked and taken aback when he found out. Not sure it achieved anything else other than significantly lightening my wallet, ha.
Did you do this in order to move yourself forward? Or to get his attention? How did he even find out?
If you do 180s and things like this (I'd argue this isn't a true 180, more of a 1 off activity) in order to get his attention, it will almost always backfire. Work on 180s for YOU!
Originally Posted by Reeling
I am working on myself but how can he ever see that if we don't see each other? He very, very rarely uses social media. We have very few friends in common that would feed anything back to him about me doing GAL or moving on or anything like that. The friends I mentioned earlier who spoke to me to say they think he's losing his mind and there is nobody else are not here - they are all in England.
More "I need to do things for him to see". Reeling this is fool's gold. You won't like this wording, but what you are doing is trying to manipulate him back to the MR. THe problem with that is that WASs always see through it. The minute they feel you are manipulating them back to the MR, they will no longer trust anything you say or do. We hear it all the time (and many of us heard it in our own situations) where the WAS says "you are only doing that, or changing, to get me back!"
You are DBing, and trying to see if it has any effect on him. He will see right through that. When you DB and keep looking over your shoulder to see if he notices, he will realize that you are simply doing this for his benefit. And he won't trust that the changes are lasting and permanent.
When you DB (GAL, self-improve, and emotionally detach) he will eventually see the changes! He may not decide to come back to the MR, but he will realize that you are different. Even if it means you go no contact for years! He'll eventually wake up one day and go, "Wow, Reeling hasn't contacted me in 2 years. She must have really moved on! Hmmm, I wonder what she is up to.
When you do it to get a reaction, that is expectations, and expectations will hold you back every single time.
Originally Posted by Reeling
We met for lunch yesterday and had the best day. I decided no relationship talk, no heavy stuff, just keep it light and fun. When lunch was over, I suggested a drink somewhere and he agreed. We ended up spending about 6 hours together, all of which consisted of laughter and good conversation. At one point, he talked about his trip to England and I asked him what his friends had said when he told them about our break-up (he does not know obviously that his friends have all contacted me).
He replied, "They all told me to think very carefully about what I'm doing - to make sure I'm not making a mistake".
I just replied by saying, "Well, that's good advice" and left it at that.
But I was glad he was honest in his reply and didn't just say something like, "Oh, they were just sad to hear the news".
He dropped me home early evening. We live on a beautiful island and a lot of people go to the beach in the evening to watch the sunset. I told him I would be taking the dog to do that and asked if he wanted to join us (I know, I shouldn't have). He said no, that he had to get home, but then added, "but maybe during the week?" I said that would be nice.
This is why pressure and pursuit is so dangerous. "Maybe during the week" is non-committal, and let's you down easy. He felt your pressure "Go to the beach with us!" and his response was to leave....but to let you down in a way that still gives him an out ("I said MAYBE"), but lets him off the hook for hurting you to your face.
Originally Posted by Reeling
He has left all his stuff here since he walked out in April. All he has with him are some clothes and his toothbrush and shaver. He even left all his aftershave here and when I do see him, he usually looks unshaven, tired, stressed. I mean, really, I do not think there is someone else... He is staying in a tiny condo he has described as a "sh*thole" (sorry, I hope that's allowed!).
This is a very common tale. I would read zero into any of this.
Originally Posted by Reeling
Yesterday, before he left, he asked if he could take two pieces of Tupperware as he doesn't have any at his place. There's a whole cupboard of the stuff at my place (most of it collected by him - we used to joke about it). I said of course, then pointed at a George Foreman grill I had bought him just before he walked out, as he'd been saying he really wanted to get one. I asked him if he wanted to take it. He hesitated, then said, "no, that's okay for now. Things are complicated right now, aren't they?"
I have no idea what that meant, I just shrugged and said, "okay, up to you".
Hopefully you've read on the forum and know that you cannot NICE him back to the relationship. So many LBSs, especially LBWs, think that being nice, having sex, being super wife, etc, will nice the WAS back to the marriage. I would have supported a "Sure, take whatever you need" to his request. But pointing to the Foreman and offering it was too much. I have less of a problem with this entire exchange than I do the fact that you were even meeting with him to begin with. These kind of meetings have a way of frustrating and confusing LBSs. Remember: When he wants to come back...you will know. When he doesn't, you will be confused.
Originally Posted by Reeling
He had brought me a jar of pickled onions he'd got while visiting his Dad in England - his Dad makes these and they're super spicy. My husband can't eat them but knows I like them and his Dad had asked him to give them to me.
So after he left, I decided try one but could not get the lid off the glass jar, it was screwed so tightly shut. So I messaged him (we communicate via WhatsApp) and told him, throwing in a few laughing emojis and making a joke of it.
He responded, "I will fix for you" and put a kiss at the end of the message. (Not wanting to read too much into that but he hasn't done that for a while).
More expectations.......... Reeling, so many LBSs read stuff into these exchanges. First, you reached out first (again). Second he threw you a bone with the onions and the response. But where is he? You want to read into a jar of onions and text message with a kiss....but are ignoring the fact that the guy lives somewhere else. Do not put hope in things you should not be dealing with! If he really wanted to be with you he'd have been home to open the jar for you.....not promise to do that later with a "kiss" emoji.
Originally Posted by Reeling
To answer how he found out I was having a minor procedure (needed an MRI for an arm injury) and paid for half of it - I told him.
I've had a few calls with coach Joann but the last one was in June. I know I should go dark but I'm worried that all that will happen if I do that is that he goes dark too. And we just continue in darkness indefinitely. I am trying to bring him back in from the cold.
I appreciate all your support so much. Thank you and sorry this is a bit long.
If you go dark and it goes into darkness indefinitely......then you will have your answer! I know you want to put your hope into a truth that you want, but you have to be open to the fact that the truth may not be what you want it to be. Your goal should be to get to the truth, not try to change it. YOu have no control except over yourself. So remove the focus from him and focuse on yourself.
I do not intend for these responses to be harsh, I intend to get you to see your situation for what it is. I was the same as you when early in my situation. It took honest responses to my posts go get me to wake up to the facts.
I'm sorry, it's me again, but I have a question that has been really bothering me and it's why I resist going dark and in fact, had been thinking of asking if we could have regular meet-ups. The question is related to this rule of Sandi's:
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
If I don't schedule a meet-up, we NEVER see each other. If I don't initiate a text, we NEVER speak. Therefore, how on earth can the R get "much better" during total radio silence and never seeing each other? This is what I'm struggling so much to understand. I almost start to panic at the idea that I will never be able to implement divorce busting strategies if I never see or hear from him. It doesn't help that he keeps making comments about moving overseas.
Can anyone help me understand this? Thank you!
You struggle with this because you do not understand why you should go dark. You think you should go dark to engender a change in behavior in him. I said in my previous response: "If I go dark, maybe he will start reaching out to me!"
You go dark because you are overly attached and need to work on emotional detachment. You go dark to remove your focus from him and saving your marriage and put it on you and your own self-improvements.
Reeling here is a simple truth: LBSs do not save their marriages from a position of weakness, they save their marriages from a position of strength!
Constantly reaching out and wanting regular meetups out of fear.....IS NOT A POSITION OF STRENGTH! Remember, there are no guarantees here. The likelihood is that you will end up D'd. Why? Because it takes two to make a marriage, only one to make a D. So drop your fear of D. Your problem is not whether or not he D's you. Your problem is how long you will allow him to hold you hostage? Do you want to be in limbo in 2 years from now?
One of the best pieces of advice I got in my situation was to set a drop dead date. In my case, it was one year after BD. It went like this: "If she isn't committed back to the MR fully and completely by the 1 year anniversary of BD, then I will go file for D myself." This gave me an end goal. To me, being in limbo for longer than a year was WORSE than ending up D'd.
Also, he has to feel a loss in order to have any chance of questioning what he is doing. You are not letting him feel your loss. You text, call, setup meetups. And that tells him "Hey, I can treat Reeling anyway I want, and if I want her back all I have to do is snap my fingers and she'll take me back!" Sadly, he is right. The worst thing that could happen Reeling is for him to comeback and for you to have NO requirements for his return. All you would be doing is setting yourself up for another BD in the future.
So what does reconciliation look like to you? What are your requirements for his return? Have you even thought about this? If you let him waltz right back home, guess what? You will have taught him that he can just come and go as he pleases! "Oh, Reeling made me mad, I am moving out! Because I can always just move back in anytime I want. I have her wrapped around my little finger!" Again, that is a position of weakness.
There are plenty of examples of failed Rs here on this forum because the LBS let the WAS waltz right back in. You need to have requirements. And you need to stick to them.
Reeling, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm glad that you have decided to not initiate contact with your H. It is a difficult thing to do, but I do think it gives the LBS a sense of control in a crazy situation.
Originally Posted by Reeling
She said he told her he wanted to fix things with me. I told her I’d seen very little evidence of that from him and she said he frequently told her he was confused about what he wanted and changed his mind from day to day. She then insisted she herself was hoping he and I would be able to fix things. WTF…
This must have been very hard to hear. It seems that it does show just how lost the WAS is, though. In this case, it's not just your foggy-brained WAH—the OW herself is a confused WAS confused who evidently sought out the affair as a bandaid for her own issues.
It's cold comfort, but from what the OW is saying, it seems that your H was thinking about you a lot during the affair...
Originally Posted by Reeling
He shows very, very little remorse – he mainly feels sorry for himself and the fact that most of his friends and family are now furious with him - and seems incapable of empathy or understanding my pain. He insists he did want to fix our marriage but it’s too late now, he’s totally screwed up so there’s no point. (Right, because that makes sense.)
This self-absorbed, defeatist behavior seems very common among WAS in the reconciliation process, from what I've read on these boards. It's seems very painful for the WAS to face the destruction they've caused. They're weak and scared of rejection. But they might be able to draw strength from their LBS.
Originally Posted by Reeling
He won’t answer any of my questions about the details (where did you kiss her, how many times, etc) I feel I need details to heal but am resigned to never getting them – or at least not getting them anytime soon. I asked him if I was in right in my theory that she kissed him before leaving for Australia. He got flustered and said no, then got more flustered and said “it was just a goodbye kiss”. He is clearly lying.
Why do you think you need to know the details to heal? Do you really want those images in your head? The questions seem motivated by your (very justified!) anger. Meanwhile, your H is not ready to be honest. At some point, it probably would be necessary to talk about the A for your (and his) healing, but I imagine it's a series of conversations better conducted in a calmer state—and with professional guidance.
First off.....DBing can seem deceptive, however there are no magic bullets through this. And the BEST way to try to save your marriage is to become a better version of yourself.
IF this is MLC, then your goal is to try and outlast the MLC, while working on yourself and trying to be the best version of Reeling that you can be ...consistently....
MLC or WAS doesn't really matter for right now, until you get a grasp on yourself and stop thinking emotionally, and start to find your center...
However...
IF THIS IS MLC.....???
There are gonna be things that make your head want to spin all the way around through this.
MLC....IF he is.....IS a test of EVERYTHING that you have inside you .....
What he is going through is not pretty, and never think that it is on purpose either....There are things in his head that you cannot begin to imagine.
A couple hits though.....
MLC'ers lie......period
MLC'ers project their feelings onto the person closest to them...
MLC'ers...cheat on their spouses....not all, but the majority of the time.
To get through this, you will need to understand that YOU are the only person that you can do anything about....
Don't spend this time that HE needs, pining away waiting for him..
Do for you ....Always
Take care of YOU..... You need to make yourself Number one.......
Realize that you can do everything "right" and there is no guarantee that you will come out the other side with a restored marriage with him....
What WILL happen is that you will realize that YOU will come out the other side of this a better person.
Take the time to understand what you are dealing with , and then do the work for yourself.....Strive to be better everyday....
Don't snoop....the only person you will hurt is you.....
Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung
Don't put a timeline on this....there is none except his....
Don't think there is something YOU can do to change this path for him...
You're never gonna talk your way out of something you acted your way into...
Time...Patience...Understanding....and being real...
Those are your friends right now....Your best friends...
Give plenty of space
Do for you
Understand your role right now to get through this....
One day at a time....One hour at a time....and in the beginning?
One minute at a time...
Don't talk to family and friends about this either, you will only hurt you.....
Come here to vent and understand, there is NOTHING you can say that will shock any of us....
I have always said that I wouldn't wish this onto my worst enemy....at first I meant because of the hurt....Now ?
Because I wouldn't want him to be as good of a man than I ....
What is gained through this , is far more than what is lost.
Think of this as a positive thing, as long as YOU DO THE WORK....
There isn't as much activity here as in the past, so spend that time in the Archives, and read and understand as much as you can to help you through the dark times.
MLCers seem to follow a script of sorts.
I love you but not in love with you. Rewriting of history. You were controlling. Spending New friends
The list goes on and on. Read the DR section on MLC, it is actually on a link on here and then read the resource thread here. Educate yourself about what you might be dealing with.
Then, later down the road, read it again. You will know. And one thing to please keep in mind, the stages as they are broken down, do NOT follow the neat way they are typed out. They bounce back and forth, up and down, and just all over the place.
