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Good Morning g


Yes this is a common trait of the MLCer. The crisis drags them back to their time of their trauma; from whence they need to grow up from. This is, for most, their teenager and/or childhood years. Thus they behave, treat, and interact with the world - people, finances, life insurance, risk, relationships, employment, how they dress, how they speak, and so on - in a childlike manner. It is interesting, and wildly weird, to see a woman of 50 behaving like a 13 year old.

One’s emotional state (mental state) does come through in their interactions. Most adults have grown up and put away childhood things. For one consumed by torment and emotional time travel, they display childlike behaviour. Your daughters do see this and are rather spot on with what Mom is doing. You could give them an explanation for ‘why’ Mom behaves thusly. However, the truly deeply hidden cause/why of Mom’s behaviour - the hidden trauma(s) - remains unknown. For only XW can discover that herself.

Another facet of Mom’s treatment towards daughters is that’s how she see them. It is one part, children see the world through children eyes. So, a teenage-like XW is going to see the world likewise. It is second part, that XW/Mom has stalled.

That time travel stuff again. The MLCer, while consumed and embroiled in replay, is pretty much asleep in the present. There are moments when they peek out of replay, peek out of the tunnel, and display moments of awakening. Like the character Rip Van Winkle, they awaken to find the world has moved on without them. Most often they dive back into replay facing such disorientation, which of course exacerbates things further.

The fortunate ones do, bit by bit, peek by peek, slowly - glacially slowly - make their journey. With a good and correct amount of fate, luck, God, the universe, whatever - the fortunate exit the tunnel. Face their depression, work through withdrawal, and hopefully find acceptance. All on their own time.

For me it is 8+ years post bomb drop. Remember a crisis usually silently starts around 18-24 months before BD. My XW is now around a decade ‘asleep’. So many events missed in our kids’ lives. A fact which was noticeable during my son’s wedding. XW has been missing for quite a while.

Post wedding, and the (forced) peek or two she had, she has run back into the tunnel. Quit her grass mowing jobs. Missed the kid’s birthdays. And hidden away, again. Poor gal. She is quite a lost soul. I suspect Christmas isn’t going to do her any favours.


I know what you say. At times, I still miss what could have been. Long for it. And then let it go. And embrace what I do have. Which is actually a lot.

I didn’t deal the cards, I just play the cards I’ve been dealt.


“Outside looking in.”

Some advice.

Go inside.

Don’t stand out in the cold. Go inside.

For example. The in-laws. And from what you say, you are looking/willing to keep this relationship alive and active. So, get ahead of things. Do not wait to react to late invites and such. Invite them to your house. First. Not reacting. Acting.

Make plans and invite Grandparents for Christmas. Take the lead.

Believe me, they are feeling disappointed, unsure, etc. And will be happy to have an invite.

I’ve found people are quite happy to join in to activities. They mostly need someone to just make the decision.

(People also have a reluctance to get involved because of our grief. A common reaction, and most unhelpful. When you ever get the opportunity with a person in grief, go against this incorrect default feeling and speak with them.)

Leading and deciding also helps you.

It may be a strange feeling to be somewhat the ‘center of attention’. Yet go with it. You’re not stealing the spotlight or anything, just being the host. The man of the house.

Decide, choose, and act to be inside.

Be the life of your home. (I know, it takes effort to let go that wife/Mom was usually in that role. Let go, and take the reins.)

Shine.

Trust me, people will and do gather to such a light.

D

 No, not … exactly. I’ll say up front they are good-hearted people.  So, any thoughts on them are in that context.  There is history with Grandma (I’ll leave the naming to keep people clear), though not so much directly with the children. 

Grandma doesn’t like to make decisions and often uses indirect guilt trips to push things her way.  When I met XW (in her late 20s), she was badly co-dependent on Grandma.  Even for daily/weekly decisions.  Though she was trying to break away and run her own life.  Grandma, apparently, had used XW (since her teen years)  as her emotional sponge and validation for complaints about Grandpa.  During this crisis, I learned that from XW’s perspective, Grandma had strayed from Grandpa in the early years and he hadn’t let her forget it since.  From XW's perspective, they have passive aggressive emotional sniping ongoing in the background.

The above troubled relational dynamics and associated coping mechanisms spill over. If I had to guess, I’d say Grandma isn't even aware of her own passive aggressive emotional manipulation.  She likely wouldn't be aware of how it would be perceived by D18.  For her part, D18 perceives this, and reacts with the tools, words, and capabilities of the 18-year-old young woman she is.   Sometimes very self-aware.  Sometimes falls apart.


No, not in therapy.  Though I agree, it is a good idea at some point.  To D18's credit, she normally recognizes her own reactions.  She usually asks for space to reset herself.  It's usually pretty rapid from emotional reactions to self-control.   I try - 

To stick to being unflappable whatever her emotions spill out.  A solid foundation in their lives.
To not take any of it personally.  It is from her internal reality.
To name it, "that is sad" or "that is angering."   Understanding and empathy.
To identify potential reactions or actions she could choose and on what basis she might pick them based on what she might consider important to herself.  So that she looks at what she considers important and chooses actions/reactions based on them.


I had an interesting conversation with a co-worker last week along those lines.  People were discussing plans for the holiday weekend and when my plans were... non-standard... I gave him the short explanation of my household status.  He identified... because his father left when he and sisters were young.  One sister reacted by never making him part of her life again.  He and the other sister were always excited to see him.  For he was unavailable ... but he was a bringer of fun things and treats.  AND he sees now, how his mom was left holding the bag... the one who sacrificed and made a home and life for him and sisters.  Unprompted, his story validated the advice given here.


NGL, a little praise feels good.  *laughs*  

I try to keep in mind complaints D20 and D18 made individually to me. "Dad, mom is still treating me like I'm 10 or 12 and telling me what to do and feel." Is this is connected to the MLC part of XW's crisis? Don't know. Don't need to know. I try to be a guide and safety net for these young adults.


I'm not actually angry or upset at them.  Sometimes I am disappointed. Sometimes I am unsure.  Often unhappy that we have to navigate this at all.

From the beginning of this episode, my mental model for thinking on them was a question.  Twenty years from now, how would I react or deal with D20 or D18 making the choices XW has?

So...  maybe they too feel disappointed, unsure, often unhappy that we have to navigate this at all.  

Grandma and Grandpa stopped by to pick up the young ones the other day.  They were taking them and XW to a Medieval Times show and dinner.  The last one out the door, Grandma stops and turns briefly, "Oh, ... I wish you were coming too...  *short worried sigh*" and then hustled out to their car.  

Though no longer dragged by it all ... like others experienced, the holidays, the ex-in-laws, ... my chest tightens and eyes fill.  I sometimes feel like I'm on the outside looking in.  

g

Outside In - Circle of Dust

It's hard for me to face that so much time has passed
And all the things that went away were those I thought would last
It’s hard to look into the mirror dark within
And not embracing the reflection there  may be my greatest sin
...
Standing here with empty hands to fill my heart
And thinking I am winning in a race I didn't start
...
Sometimes I feel  I'm on the outside looking in
It's like I'm  watching someone else living in my skin
Hope has stained my heart in vain, I'm drowning in my sin
Sometimes I feel I'm on the outside looking in
 Outside looking in

[Outro]
Father,  have mercy on your son
And always  bring me home again however far I've run
Father,  grant wisdom for within
So  I no longer have to be on the outside looking in

Good Morning g




Perfectly fine. And thank you for the kind words.



Good for you not getting involved in her life insurance boondoggle.


Aldo good to utilize 24 hours to consider what response to provide. As things turned out, none was required as XW decided to deal with the “monkey on everyone’s back”. (Not much of a monkey IMHO. Life has far bigger problems.)

I don’t believe you’ve been testy regarding reimbursement. Though in XW’s narrative and mind reading she ‘needs’ to see it such.

Yes, it is sad to see such confusion and consequences. Yet, as you stated, her choices are leading her to that.


Gosh, it’s December 1st. Have you started any decorating yet? Setting up the tree? I think I’m going to set up my tree, if not today, tomorrow. (Oh wait, day after tomorrow, I’ve got a dentist appointment tomorrow.)

Have a great day.

D

Am I missing something here grok? Does XW''s parents have a history of this? Even the way it's worded - there seems to be alot of emotional weight here. It 'feels' like a very big deal...

...which leads me to this question? Are your children in therapy? Obviously D18 is an new adult.. but an adult nevertheless. Her emotions are valid... but how she is handling those emotions is very childlike. How do you plan on helping her transition handling those as an adult? How do you teach her to advocate for herself whilst validating her feelings?


We learn to live with them. Sometimes... there is no lesson. Having an unavailable parent is not easy to deal with. There is lots of reparenting yourself that has to be done.

I think you do a great job at allowing your children to have feelings around the issue.
I think you do a really good job pulling back to see a bigger picture (kids continuing a relationship with the grandparents).

AND I can see it there are still little things that sting. And that's okay.

In regards to the XW's parents - perhaps try to understand they are on a journey too. I'm sure it's not easy for them to watch XW's behavior and probably don't have the best tools to handle it. Are you really angry at them? Or are you just upset about the situation?

DnJ connected thoughts day. (LOL)

You may not get responses…but they do roll around in minds and hearts.

A change on the rise.

XW


Sort of.  Explicitly agreed to when they were S11, D16, and D18:

* XW may come over on weekdays while I am at work to homeschool children.
* XW may stay over while I am on business travel since there are minors in the home.

Tacitly accepted

* If XW comes over in the evenings "to say goodnight," I have not objected if she sometimes comes in the house and hangs out with them for a bit.  I think it is good for my children.
* When XW comes over with her parents during workdays because they are in town, I have not objected.  Spending time with the children is good for them all.
* Other one offs where she comes over for some reason....

Of note, XW never made a place for kids or parents to visit/hang out.  As far as I know, she has not picked up the type of work that would generate income to do so.  


I knew the moment had arrived
For killing the past and coming back to life

I read it a little bit differently...the great thing about verse... I see killing off the imagined futures that rested on the roots of the past.  Those manifold dreams that were to unfold ... but no longer will.  

THOSE branched futures are dead.  But for a while, the LBS won't internalize it.  They are killed off, ended, and it is time to recognize and accept what is.

for

What the LBS sees in time, after doing the work, is a new process that has been planted and generating underneath. 

While the seeds of life and the seeds of change were planted

A seed planted.  A new root.  A new branching manifold future unfolding.

Forever fractures and Jacob’s limp


And what do we do with the presence of such fractures? What lessons do we move forward with?


What is standing?

Am I still standing? Not in the definition of trying to continue a marriage to XW. Though I leave open the possibility, she has not shown any of the qualities defined by Sandi2 as necessary for a R. More like… the seeds of change were planted and


I feel sad

…when XW exhibits…(lightly paraphrased)

G, emailing life insurance, ”please assist XW in transferring billing for life insurance to her account”

as XW has not completed this settlement term in over a year. We had discussed this briefly before. I’ve been paying for the policy so it didn’t lapse. I told XW, though it is a term, it was required for the court to accept the settlement, but I do not require it of her. I am acquainted with the person I am emailing. It’s not a cold corporate email.

XW messaging, ”How many months do you want reimbursed? I’m not signing until I have to, which is soon.”
Pause
”Never mind. I will sign the paperwork tomorrow. It doesn’t really matter what they have done anyway. None of it matters. God is in control.”

I didn’t reply, thinking to reply after 24hrs … something like I don’t require any reimbursement

The next day in email I see…

Life insurance, ”G, We have sent multiple applications to XW with no success.
XW, we can stop billing G but if you do not get new you will not be in line with your decree.
what you want to do.”

XW, ”I cared about decree obligations; G told me “he was covered and didn’t need anything from me”.  I understand not wanting to pay every month on my obligation.  I don’t blame him for being testy about this. 

If a lump sum payment, I will sign it December 1st, that is what I can meet.  A lump sum was what I initially requested and it came back to me listing monthly payments.  I apologize deeply for digging my heels in.  I have had hackers steal my identity and wreak havoc, including with every aspect of my finances (my car, my RV, my children’s health and educational opportunities, my annual taxes, my internet, travel, and so very much more). It is hard to address this with people who are not friends and family”

Life insurance, ”I am truly sorry for everything you are going through. That would not be easy.
We will stop the auto draft from G’s acct. “

XW, ”I appreciate your patience… I will read it over and sign it to get this monkey off everyone’s backs.“

I don’t think I’ve ever been “testy.” XW has had a 25 year habit of mind reading. Hackers to blame for everything? I have no idea. I am doubtful. Given this trend started when she added $7,000 extra in one month to our joint credit card just before she departed. Those extra charges stopped the moment she gave the card back to me.

I am sad she is having such a hard time. Mind and Heart. I don’t wish it on her. She has the skills (multiple degrees) and wealth (half our net worth) not be in the predicament.

I’m not fixing it. I don’t feel an urge to.

Just sad this is where her choices lead to.

g

Change on the Rise - Avi Kaplan

What good's a man
Who's lost his soul
Can't take a stand
Mmm, when his flame's gone cold

Mmm, fend off the enemy
Sing out the jubilee
With all the fire we can breathe
…
Headed up, down the river
Oh, Lord, I feel the reveling
I feel a change on the rise

Good Morning bk

Glad to hear D18’s birthday went well. Sounds like h/Dad managed to step up.


Excellent!

Yes, it is rather surprising the first time we think, we feel, we accept like that. Quite the milestone.


Keep on doing your thing. Like job said, make family plans and let H join in if he wants to.

How’s the driving practice going? A rather stress inducing rite of passage. In the end, a good stress. For both parties.

Hope you’re having a wonderful day.

D

Good Morning m

A daughter! Congratulations! Wonderful news!

D

I am sure you are looking forward to your D coming home for Thanksgiving. Enjoy the time you have with her. It sounds like your h was ok with going out to dinner for her birthday and then stopping at DQ to get her a blizzard.

The holidays can be very rough for those who have lost family members over the years. When you feel emotional, pull out those wonderful memories that you shared with family and allow the warm glow from those memories wrap you in a warm blanket of love.

As for your h, no expectations. Keep focusing on you and your family. Plan some fun things to do during the holidays and if he wants to tag along, so be it. Control you and what you can do and leave the rest in God's hands. He is the only one that can drive the bus.

Happy Thanksgiving and I want to hear all about the fun things that you did with your family this holiday.

Flashes

D18, "Dad, Grandma said they wanted to do games tonight. I said around 5p, is that OK?"
G, prioritizing grandparent time, "sure, that is fine... do you have your schoolwork done enough for tomorrow?"

....church, grocery shopping, cleaning, put away from weekend camping with S14...

D18, with teary eyes, "Dad! Grandma is such a brat! I don't like her right now!"
G, emotional force fields up to accept calmly whatever pours out, "What happened D18? isn't it about time you were planning games with grandparents?"
D18, "Grandma asked if I wanted to do it at home or at mom's shop."

Oh! ... it didn't take but a split seccond to understand why that was sooooo wrong. Grandma effectively asking D18 to choose between Dad and Mom.

flashes

of

anger, disapointement, grief

that this is put on my children!!!

it all rolls though me in an overlaping instant

can't breath

then

G, "oh, yes, D18, that is NOT ok and not right to ask you."

and I don't say but am proud of her for seeing it for what it was ...

... I give D18 hugs.

G, "Why don't you go over to your mom's and take S14. I'll get the shopping done here while you are out. Just message me if you think of something we should get for this week. As you have an assignment due, pick a time when you need to leave and tell them this when you arrive."

My thinking... these are XW's parents, let them have an enjoyable few hours together...with XW and D18 and S14. D20 is out for the weekend visiting a friend three hours drive away.

coda

ring, ring,

D18, "Dad, we're on the way to mom's shop and she isn't answering. Grandma is trying the door but there is no response. I don't know if she even asked mom. I just thought you should know. "
G, "OK D18, thanks for calling. let me know if you head back home agian."

g



ps

S14 and I had a good time camping for a couple days (Fri/Sat/Sun) despite, "Dad, I DONT like camping" 14 year old grumpiness.

I launched into camping directly after... driving 6 hours to a concert Thursday night with D20 (We are the Messengers, Jeremy Camp, and Skillet) ... and D20 let me know the day before, "Daaaad, we have to be back before noon on Friday...I scheduled work!" So. Driving home from midnight to morning hours of Friday! Oh... to be young LOL.

In the Spirit of the Season. The Rockin' version

O Come, O Come Emmanuel - Skillet

O come, Thou Dayspring, come and cheer (Come and cheer)
Our spirits by Thinе advent here (Advеnt here)
Disperse the gloomy clouds of night
And death's dark shadows put to flight
...
Rejoice! (Rejoice!) Rejoice! (Rejoice!) Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel (Oh)
...
He's with us now



pps

Side story,

When We Are Messengers was finishing their set, next to last song, they played "Maybe It's Ok." I've quoted this song before. Acceptance of not being Ok, being broken...

Maybe it's ok if I'm not ok
'Cause the One who holds the world is holding on to me
Maybe it's alright if I'm not alright

The singer stopped and turned to the audience, "I'm a professional for my art...but I'm going to have to end it right here and not do the last song. I don't have it in me tonight. My Da called me two nights ago and said Ma had an MRI of her head. There's something there and she's not OK. I wish I was there with her right now. ... It's OK to not be OK. We are all broken sometimes." The audience gave him much love as he and crew exited the stage.

day by day

Just checking in. Keep moving on. Doing my thing. Working on becoming the best me I can be. Crying in the shower or car seems to be my thing when I need it. It’s less and less. But some days are harder than others. Blessed to have you guys, my coaching group and friends to talk to.

D’s now 18…whew..birthday was so amazing. I took her out to practice driving in the morning, D, H, and I took the dog hiking and then had an amazing dinner. The staff brought out cheesecake for my D for her birthday which she doesn’t like. So H and I split it. Then he asks he what she wants instead. So on the way home he makes a special stop at DQ to get her a blizzard. Not sure he would have done that 6 months ago.

Tonight D18 and I had a special night. Wicked then dinner. We both really liked the movie and both cried. We spent an amazing dinner analyzing it. We’re nerds.

D19 comes home for Thanksgiving wed. Looking forward to seeing her and to spend Thanksgiving with me dad. I think this will be the easier holiday. Christmas I think will be harder. Probably my favorite holiday and I always get a little emotional now that my mom is gone. Time will tell. I love giving gifts and seeing those smiles on my kids faces. So time will tell what happens.

H has already told me he wants to watch our college football team together tomorrow and have some drinks together. In the back of my head I keep wondering if this is like bd when I thought things were going okay, but then I know I’m different now than I was then.

I actually had a thought the other day wondering if he was lying about where he was and actually looking for an apartment or with OW. You know the stories in your head. And I actually thought, well what if he is. Not like I can do anything about it. It really surprised me having that thought, but it’s so true and that it just popped in my head and I accepted it. Was quite the feeling. No expectations.

Dropping in after a long absence to say that things are still going well with H. He is managing the mental health problems and childhood traumas that contributed to the crazy bomb drop. I have been keeping up my changes as well. We are taking care of ourselves and of each other. We bought and settled into our forever home. And we are now a family of three! We welcomed our daughter this fall.

Three years ago, I was crying every day. It was the worst pain I have ever felt. Unable to work, eat, or sleep. And H was asking me to get the divorce process moving.

I can't believe how far we have come!

Hello g

Happy Birthday to S14! Pretty sweet upgrade from his 8 year old phone.


I understand you being irritated with the surprise invite of XW.


It is one thing to speak directly, and make plans directly, with their older grandchildren. After all, the girls are adults. However, XW’s parents extending an invite to XW seems to cross a line.

That being said, I believe your agreement is that XW could more or less come and go as she pleases. Also:


So, Grandma and Grandpa are always welcome. And XW is allowed as well. So, what is it that is upsetting you? Be specific. (The answers are for you. You need not share them. Just some help uncovering ‘why’.)

In the above, did Grandma and Grandpa asked/invite themselves through D20? Or did D20 ask if Grandma and Grandpa could be invited? Does it change things? Should it? Is one way better than the other?

If you were like my family, XW was the go between. The one who invited people and arranged birthdays and such. That duty falls to who now? In my case, for the first year, it was more picked up by my older kids and my Mom. I then realized that duty didn’t belong on their shoulders, it’s not their job, and I actively took over. And now, I do ok. However, XW was better at it. (Or seemed it to me.)


An interesting quote.

It is a new and different life after such. Divorce or reconciliation; as one’s situation progresses the old life fades and a new one unfurls.

Consider where you are. How things presently function. The family dynamics, communication, and such. What is respectful and disrespectful of you. Of your home. Consider how you would like things to be. Then work and move forward towards that end.

Do this when calm and free from the emotions of holidays and gatherings. Be rational and levelheaded when considering the what’s and why’s of it.

Killing the past and coming back to life. I think it less a matter of actively killing, and more a matter of what one’s feeding.

Feed the present. Feed the dynamics you want. Live and love your life.

D

Days

Holidays -
Thanksgiving is approaching and XW's parents came to town for a few weeks. The news was passed though D18 some weeks back.

I've been thinking I should have a separate talk, them and me. ... Set our connection anew, without XW between anymore, and not going through their grandchildren. This is MY home. They are welcome here but come to me directly. I'm not sure how I will handle Thanksgiving... as... well, see below.

The moment has arrived for killing the past and coming back to life

Birthdays -
S13 is now S14! *fireworks*

The big present was upgrading him from an 8 year old iPhone to a 16e. I stacked all the discounts and added him to my overarching plan.

Over the last week, D20, D18 and I had set up a small family party for just us this evening with cake and gifts.
later...
D20, "Can Grandma and Grandpa come over too?"
G, "Of course they can. They are always welcome."

And then, as I was out this evening, I received a message 30 minutes before I got home and the mini-party started at 8:30p

D20, "Dad.... Grandma invited mom over. I didn't know that was happening. She thought it would be nice for S14. Just wanted to make sure you knew."
G, "It will be nice for S14"

Hmmm... I'm split here. I'm a little irritated Grandma is making invitations without talking to me. At the same time, since it turned into more than just the four of us, it probably was good for S14.

XW, and her parents, could have done birthday things or plans any time all day. They did not. Nor make plans for such. Huh.

Anyway, I exhibited good cheer for all, teasing my young ones (dual wielding lighters for the candles...lol), taking pictures I will share later.

XW, 45 minutes later, after presents and a bite of cake, quietly, "I'm gonna get going now." and heads out saying bye to S14.

Grandma, "Where did XW go? Did she leave?"

Grandma and Grandpa left about 15 minutes later.

g

Coming Back to Life - David Gilmour] (Live from the Luck and Strange Concerts)

Where were you when I was burned and broken
While the days slipped by from my window watching
Where were you when I was hurt and helpless
Because the things you say and the things you do surround me
While you were hanging yourself on someone else's words
Dying to believe in what you heard
I was staring straight into the shining sun

Lost in thought and lost in time
While the seeds of life and the seeds of change were planted
Outside the rain fell dark and slow
While I pondered on this dangerous but irresistible pastime
I took a heavenly ride through our silence
I knew the moment had arrived
For killing the past and coming back to life

I took a heavenly ride through our silence
I knew the waiting had begun
And headed straight..into the shining sun

(Quite literally written about his divorce and finding the woman he later married)

Here ‘tis.

https://forum.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939508

It is. And closes off with finality a little bit more of the old me while freeing the new me. Though I am uneven in follow-through, I recognized some time ago that each action I took, to close off the remaining connections between XW and myself, was freeing in an undefined weird, bittersweet way.

day by day

The day by day yesterday.

D20 excited about FL being 37F overnight and then crying and throwing up at 2am. "dad, fix it. it hurts"

D18 very smartly thinking through why she doesn't like her current work situation and then later at night falling emotionally apart i just want to go to bed but i have schoolwork due, and i can't close the web page, and i thought i'd be done in time, and i have pets to do, and dishes to do, and i need you to review it, and i worked so hard today to make sure i was on time, i crashed out on the floor with the heating pad because i didn't feel good today, and ....."

S13 intelligently working search engines in the process of getting his Pet Care badge and then being single syllable grumpy "uuhhgg" about not liking anything in the full fridge and pantry.

Me? I crashed out on my bed for an hour "nap" ... while my mini-adults "snuck" in and took pictures of me sleeping. LOL.

triggers and cycles

Well, another life event hit me sideways triggered / caused that well worn cycle of emotions...

Though to clarify, it was not MY life event.

Some posts back I mentioned reconnecting with a cousin. We've been messaging on and off ever since. I received the following about a week ago and have been letting the swirling emotions just do their thing.

Cousin S,
...Hope all is going as good as possible...
...life putts along for years then all of a sudden it changes...
...asked for a divorce the end of august—- he let it be known that we ( the kids n I) are no longer profitable to him and as he has been involved with another affair all summer… he’d like his freedom - which he has been enjoying....
...boys n I will be moving up to...
...in the spring I will move my folk up there too...
...so much to work through after  20 years here married...
...all the mental n emotional packing that’s hard...

You can see why that would pull me, if briefly, right back to the point when you realize EA/PA from the person you trusted most.

I messaged back love and hugs. and some snippets from postings here. and music selections.

Cousin S,
...Maybe that’s why I think you’d understand…
...the first affair I was aware of was  when SXX was 3- so 15  years ago...
...broke my trust,  my heart- everything.  I was angry - very very angry...
...but I didn’t want to share custody for...
...thought when he quit that one it would be it...
...few years ago, the boys n I were able to name 16…
...quit counting… and quit caring...
...he’d come and go with less interest in the family than a customer at a bed n breakfast...
...for narcissists, the relationship isn’t about feelings or emotion or connection— it’s about control...
...instead of a fatal stab with a sword that  stops you in your tracks, mine is more a constant stabbing  that over time...
...times I feel like I can’t go on… like every thing is ending...
...But then I have those glimpses of hope- your dad mentioned- ... i might be able to ... discover what normal would be….after all these years- I don’t  think I know normal...
…what does it feel like not to be angry or hurt…

Wow. That sent me into a whole different spin cycle. what do you say? the fixer can't fix. there is no fixing to be done. yet...what parts of DB principles can be offered as supporting. I offer a place to vent. I offer understanding. I offer bits of my own experience as empathy and connection. A point of love and understanding from outside the mess.

Cousin S,
...you are right. Grief does cycle...
...I think it’s important to recognize the cycle. Realize it’s part of the new reality .  Realize you don’t get stuck in anyone part of it.  And realize it’s ok...
...Thanks for the songs.  Music is my life blood....
...let’s just say if you hear a Metallica tune from my direction it’s probably not a good time to speak to me...
...lifts your focus from the mess around to the creator...
...No matter what- that’s where I usually land...  

I ... think I struck the right balance. Music as a connection? OK! Lets go!

Cousin S,
...I complete love these songs… I understand the feeling expressed in the Judah song.  I’m so thankful people put feelings to music.  Sure relate… 
...We start loading the uhauls on Sunday.
...It will be a crazy week!


My emotions still swirl at her messages, though very muted now. I was a little surprised at how much...I mean, still reading archives here doesn't hit me like this. I wonder why? Because she is my cousin and I know her? I let the question rest for now.

g

Beatitudes - JUDAH

I differed my hope, all I do is cope
I don't got the words, sum up all the hurt
I just wanna cry, wanna be alright
Can't be weak, can't break free
On my knees
Most days, my face on the floor
Heart can't break any more from the pain of the divorce
Oh, my God, what's this for?
...
Is it a test? 'Cause I'll fail more and more
I suck, fresh out of fucks
Where are you, my Lord?
...
Another medium, see it different
Blessed are the meek and those who thirst
Blessed are the poor and the hearts that hurt
Blessed are the ones in bed, can't get out their head
...
Might wanna die, nothing left to cry
Just trying to survive, that was me terrified
I see now that life had to prove
Like roses are red and violets blue
I don't know what I would do without you

I’m sorry JaeJae. I really am.

It’s not much consolation for you I guess, but know that you aren’t alone. Nearly everyone who comes to this site finds out about the affair eventually.

Prioritise self care - exercise, individual counselling, eating well, avoid drinking, start some mindfulness training, do some daily gratitude. Turn inwards. Focus 100% on you and build a wall around yourself and your heart. Don’t isolate. Lean heavily on family and a few trusted friends. And get outside and out of the house - yoga classes, cooking classes, mountain biking, hiking, live music. Force yourself to do those things, even though you won’t feel like it.

Affair discovery is pretty much the lowest point, it’s worse than bomb drop. So you’ve actually passed the worst bit now. Whether the affair fizzles and he comes crawling back, or he serves you with papers and you go separate ways - either way, what comes next gets easier. It will be painfully slow and hard, but rest assured you’ve passed the worst bit.

I remember when I found out about the affair. I could hardly breathe. But it was actually a turning point in my journey. The start of a new beginning.

Have you read my thread about exercise?

Hi Kev.

As always, some great advice from DNJ and others. You must focus on you, not on her. Exercise like you’ve never exercised before. It’s the best thing you can do for your mental health.


I feel it quite likely this is indicative of an emotional or physical affair. This wild flip flopping back and forward (suddenly they seem to be waking up, and then a week later they flip back to burning it all down again) is a very common theme on this site. I’ve seen it so many times, and nearly always it shortly precedes discovery of an affair. Women are monkey branchers - they keep their old branch firmly in hand as a fallback option until they’ve really tested the new one out and get the confidence to finally let go of the old one. Google it! Accountability is also not the strong suit of a walk away or wayward wife, so as DNJ indicated, it’s a lot easier for her conscience and public image if she can get you to file rather than take responsibility for ending it herself.

I re-read your first post today. There’s so much going on.

Here’s where I ask the hard questions - but please know this comes from a place of kindness.

Why do you want to be with this woman? Is it because you genuinely want to be with a person who treats you like this? Do you think it’s temporary and she’ll snap back to who she was, or do you think this was there all along and you didn’t see it?

You’ve given your everything for this woman, and to wholly support her children from other men - and she’s just cut you off from them without batting an eyelid because she wants to “find herself”. You’ve doubled down with long term commitment, and yet she’s willing to drop you overnight.

She’s bipolar, and has been mentally and physically abusing you - in front of the kids.

Look, I get it - this is a pro marriage-saving website and forum. That’s why we all end up here. But I wouldn’t be being honest if I didn’t say that I think the future of this marriage sounds like a bin fire.

And rather than concentrate on her, her tattoo covering, her social media blocking and unblocking, her flip flopping and inconsistency … what you really need to do, is focus on yourself - asking why you want to try and save a marriage to a person like this. From the cheap seats, it doesn’t make much sense.

Good Morning Kev

Glad to hear from you.

The hallmarks of a crisis are depression and confusion.

Depression is ever-present, and hidden behind a mask. The MLCer runs from their unrealized pain and trauma by engaging in all manner of behaviours. Spend money, drinking, drugs, exercise, work, sex, etc.

These activities are a distraction. And the crisis person’s attempt at regaining their lost youth. Doing all the stuff they feel they missed out on.

Like I said, behaviours/activities masks the deep consuming ever-present depression, which lurks covertly. It’s seldom seen during the replay stage as they are actively ignoring it. However, at night, laying in bed, in the dark, their demons will come out and play.

Behaviours only work for so long. Then new, different, usually more illicit behaviours are employed. Eventually, they slow their running and depression takes full hold. This heralds their entry in to the depression stage. Deep and dark this time is. And after is a time of withdrawal.

However, replay and running is where W is at. During this time, depression is covert and confusion is overt.

Crisis individuals will flip and flop, change directions in a second, as their feelings ping pong about. Remember, a MLCer is driven by their emotions. Very little rational decision making occurring.

They will have new friends, turning their backs on lifelong friends and family. They will adamantly tote that these new friends are the only people who truly understand them. Until they ping pong off in a different direction.

Conversation will go from kind and friendly, to it’s all your fault. At times, in the space of a single sentence!

You’ve observed this wild behaviour. It is crazy-making. It is difficult to try to rationalize such irrational behaviour. You’ll go bonkers looking for reason and understanding of why W is doing what she is doing. That is a deep rabbit hole.

You wondered if W is experiencing a crisis or is she just not wanting marriage anymore. Realize, it doesn’t need to be either or. It can be both. And likely is.

A person consumed by MLC, that lost soul, is running from their life. Running from responsibilities. Family, kids, work, marriage, and so on. Their are a hurt child/teenager. They are dragged back to the time of their emotional stunting and need to grow up from then. That hurt, lost, teenager doesn’t feel married. Or has kids. Or a job. Or lifelong responsibilities. They don’t feel it. But they know it as life presses in on them. And they lash out and run. It’s an incredible amount of torment.

You did fine with the conversations. Remember, you didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her.

My advice is to keep conversations short. I know it feels good to speak for a long time. Parsing bits of data, gathering up those breadcrumbs. Make a conscious decision here. Keep it short and no R-talks.

Do be polite. Kind and cordial. And business-like. Be the one to end the conversation. If it’s call, end things while there is still stuff to say. Same if you meet in person, be the one to initiate leaving. Finish your coffee and excuse yourself as you have things to do.

Conversations are usually utilized as resupply the MLCer’s justification for leaving and/or doing what they are. You experienced W blaming you for everything after a couple of nicer talks. This is the dance of her’s. You need not dance along.


She lied! She’s trying to get you to do the deed. For now, you don’t want or need a divorce so keep the ball in her court. Let her do the heavy-lifting.

Give her lots of time and space.

Good to see you going to the gym and taking care of yourself. Counselling, reading, exercise, all good stuff.

Focus on you and your life. Keep moving forward.

D

Good Morning j

It is staggering how many of these folks/situations have affairs. It’s nearly 100% of the time.

Do realize an affair is built upon lies and deceit, and that makes a terrible foundation for a relationship. An affair is just a symptom of a deeper problem. Do not assign much meaning to such illicitness.

I understand your trust being obliterated. H has some serious work if he wishes to regain that precious commodity. And that is a ways off for now.

Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do. H’s words have lost much, look to his behaviour. And even then, take with a grain of salt.

Those feelings of being lost and unsure of what to do have welled up, again. Perfectly normal. Realize you are fine. You are ok.

So what to do…


Agreed!

Pull way back. Focus on you. Give H lots of time and space. Let H feel the weight and consequences of his decisions. This is not being mean, rather treating him accordingly. People will treat you the way you allow them. You are not going to be disrespected and lied to. Be dim. Be kind and cordial.

As V stated, H’s growth and journey are not your responsibility.

Live and love your life. GAL. Be busy. Focus on you.

Hang in there j. (((jaejae)))

D

I'm sorry to hear this JJ. I wish it wasn't the case but so often it is.

So what to do is to take extremely good care of yourself in this time. It can be a rather difficult concept to grasp as there are pretty intense emotions flying everywhere.

Some thing to understand now is that all of H's positive messages... aren't really about loving you... at least not in the way you are hoping. Perhaps there is still some love or perhaps there is some confusion... there can also be guilt and shame and "showing up" helps alleviate that.

Regardless of the reason - please try to remember that trying to understand why... is a cheeseless tunnel for you. You won't get the answers your seek... no matter how hard you look.

Seeing that you have alot of emotions going on - a recommendation I have is for YOU to give some space to H and the situation... as a form of self care. I will tell you that the part of you that fears losing the relationship will make this seem impossible. Especially if your H then uses it as "evidence" that he made the right choice.

The control that your H says you have over his decision AND the control you think you have to save this relationship by responding from a fearful place - this is an illusion. Don't take the bait on either. This is a practice rather than a one time deal. You will have to make this decision over and over. Managing the anxiety that comes with letting go takes time.

Please remember:

You didn't cause this.
You can't change it.
You can't control it.

Pull way back. Allow your H to feel the consequences of his decisions. Be honest with yourself that he may be okay with those consequences. His growth and journey are not your responsibility.


For now... breathe... cry.... yell... allow those emotions to flow with whom you feel safe (probably not H). They are very hard emotions to handle and you deserve nothing but compassion and kindness when they come.

(( JJ ))

The plot thickens...

I found out there is at least an EA going on, possibly a PA. He has at least admitted to an EA, but denies a PA. My trust is obliterated so I don't believe anything at this point. I don't even know what to do. Everything feels hopeless at this point.

Hi everyone.

Thanks for your replies and input, i appreciate you all. I currently have no access to internet where I'm staying at the moment so have been unable to get on here. Currently at a friends house today looking after their dog so able to quickly log on for a few minutes.

So my wife messaged about 3 weeks ago. We ended up chatting for a while via messages and we ended by both saying it was nice chatting to each other. She had explained a few things and apologised for a few things she had got wrong. I was understanding with every point she made, especially about me and didn't defend or argue and agreed with what she said and accepted her views. 2 days later she messaged again and we continued chatting for most of the morning, all with me validating how she felt. We then didnt chat for about 10 days as she was about to start her shift of 7 12hr days at work so I wanted to give her space and peace as she is on her feet all day during her shifts.
When we eventually got chatting again she had a totally different tone with me. I was to blame for everything, she has no interest in getting back together, she should never have messaged me and we should go back to how things were. She says she has no trust in me for things she said she had heard i'd said about her when we 1st separated. I did argue against this and explained to her not everything she hears is black and white, nor always the truth. People twist things, add there own assumptions etc, but she's insisting I started a 'smear campaign' against her. She cant grasp that there is no way I'd do that when all I wanted to do was save our marriage. she also cant see that somebody started a 'smear campaign' against her back in May whilst we were together. Somebody started a rumour that she was having an affair with her ex (he was the 1 who phoned us up to tell us about the rumour and I do believe there is/was no truth to it). But even when that happened, at some point during the day she even accused me of starting the rumour.....why the hell would I start a rumour that my own wife was having an affair (maybe its her mental health at times but I just struggle to understand her thinking).

I've just bought and read Hearts Blessing, The 8 stages of Mid Life Crisis, and its been quite helpful but I do still have days where I'm unsure if she really is having a mid life crisis or this is genuinely her just not wanting marriage anymore.

She admitted in our chats that everything she is doing may come across as selfish but she doesn't care what people think and has had to do this for herself and put herself 1st. She keeps saying how strong and independent she has become, has more confidence than ever and is living her best life.
She says her kids all help out with chores around the house and its always spotless when she gets home from work (this was always something I used to say should happen but never did. Her words were she didn't want 'lap dog' children. I explained it was about giving them responsibility, confidence and preparing them for 'life' but she never listened at the time.
She also says she has a new group of amazing friends (again something I used to encourage but she never did. She had no friends and I'd say its not healthy and she needs to have friends to chat with, have a laugh with and even moan about me with but she used to say she doesn't want to do all the gossip that women are into. I also said to her it makes feel solely responsible for her happiness all the time and because she doesn't go out I don't get any space or time to myself either).
So obviously she got these friends and that means she now saying she has nights out and got trips planned ( yet another thing I always wanted for her).
And she lives life to a strict budget ( Something I wish she had always done. She could spend money like anything. She was good with paying bills etc but could never save what was left, she HAD to spend it. I was the 1 who saved money because she just couldn't.)

I told how how proud of her I am that she is doing all this and its the life I'd always wanted for her. ( I just don't get why its taken her to end the marriage to do all of this when it would of made a much healthier marriage if she was doing this whilst together. Things come across wrong in text but i read it like she was saying I was holding her back when all I'd ever wanted is for her to have the best life and be the best her.

She said she didn't stop me seeing our dog out of spite but she hasn't agreed to let me see him either. She wont let me see my step children either as she said I said things Infront of them the night she called police on me. So when I was being asked questions by the police she must have wanted me to lie lol. The4 police asked, I answered. At end of day the wife called the police because she couldn't get her own way and doesn't like it that the police sided with me.

So don't know what's happening with divorce as she definitely didn't file back in August like she said she had done. She did say she wants the divorce over with ASAP but I'm not going to file as its not what I want.

I'm still working on myself. Go to gym 3 times a week. Counselling once a week. Hypnotherapy once a month. Reading books and stuff trying to learn about MLC and love languages and self help books. Trying to hope for a future with my wife but also dealing with my emotions so If that doesn't happen I can still be happy. I definitely want to stand for my marriage for as long as I can but also know I shouldn't waste my life waiting for something that may not happen. Still have the time where I get emotional thinking about things but its getting less and less. I just think its the confusion of not knowing if she really is having mlc or not and what that means.

Thanks for reading and any input. I will try to get back on as soon as I can, Hopefully sometime this week

How you going MA?

How are you going Josh?

No worries Grok! This site was a huge comfort to me at the time, so I feel good to be able to give something back.

The three most pivotal bits of advice I can give:

1. Exercise, exercise, exercise
2. Do not ever behave and speak from a place of fear - it inevitably makes things worse and it makes you unattractive
3. My counsellor looking me straight in the eye and saying “Tell me again why you are fighting so hard to be with someone who is treating you so abhorrently.” And me not having any answer.