Her feeling that the opening up was about you needing something from her that was the problem (both of your problems).
I'm not sure I understand the sense of this sentence. It seems like it is missing a word, but I cannot seem to determine which. Or maybe my mind is not parsing it correctly.
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Did you ever read my response to you on my thread (titled Know-it-alls, validation, etc.)?
No, I'll admit I remember seeing it briefly and wanted to respond, but I never got back over there. I'll check ASAP.
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You don't seem communicate, at least with the example I responded to, n a straightforward way.
I think that probably has a lot to do with my self-esteem and my W's guarding of her own emotions. I always overthink convos, wondering constantly about the other persons feelings and thoughts. I'll admit I often act a lot like a pimply-faced 16-year-old who has just had the homecoming queen come up and say "hi." I am so worried that my actions will drive the person away that I sometimes hold back far too much. I've gotten a lot better about that sort of thing recently, but with certain people (especially the W), I still have not overcome my fears. I can easily see that the people who admire me the most, who tend to want to hang out with me, are the people that I have been very frank and open with. And I can see that I have often misconstrued other people's insecurities as a dislike for me. But whenever I feel attraction toward someone, my adolescence kicks into high gear, and so it is with my W.
On the other side of the coin, my W is very reserved with her emotions. This has existed well before my A, although I'm sure that event exacerbated her reservations. She openly admits that she doesn't "spill the beans" or "tell all" to anyone. She has no close girlfriends, the adult she sees most is her mom (who is EXTREMELY repressed). So I can see that a big part of my current reservation about expressing emotion is probably due to banging my head against my W's wall of reservations for so many years. Most emotions I showed were either not returned at all, or responded to with a defensive reaction to push me away.
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The women that I am friends with all agree that we don't mind emotional guys at all. What is a troublesome trait is when they seem afraid of their emotions.
I can see clearly that I am afraid of my emotions, primarily because they are so extreme, but also because living where I live in the deep south, people just don't show emotions openly, especially men. I have made a bit of a name for myself as a wild child at work because of a few incidents in which I let it all hang loose. But as I said before, the few times I have shown my emotions to my W, she withdraws. So I think my fear is understandable. That was one of the things about my A. For the first time in my life I was able to open up to someone and it was welcomed. But in the long run, even that has left me with a sense of wanting to guard myself probably more than I should.
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What traits do you like and appreciate most about yourself?
My intelligence My ability to care deeply for people My sense of adventure
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What traits about your wife to you most like?
Her good looks Her good mothering ability Her intelligence
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And what about your marriage do you like RIGHT NOW as it is?
That is a really tough one. Everything I can think of there is a twist to it. I like the fact that she is willing to care for the kids while I am gone at work or on trips, but I wish she wanted to go with me more often. She has actually now initiated sex a few times, but it is so infrequent. She is willing to allow me to do a few different things in the bedroom that she didn't in the past, but has so far been mostly unwilling to inject passion into her own behavior. She is more affectionate now than ever before, but there hasn't been much motion in a positive direction recently. We do have some good convos, but they are few, and any convo about the R she will afterwards describe as "one of those bad convos."
Thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts about my situation.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I have to get to work but I will get back to you later.
Does your wife appreciate the traits you like about yourself?
Does she appreciate her own good traits?
Also take the twists out of your appreciation of the marriage.
I like the fact that she is willing to care for the kids while I am gone at work or on trips. She has now initiated sex a few times. She is willing to allow me to do a few different things in the bedroom that she didn't in the past. She is more affectionate now than ever before. We do have some good convos.
What kinds of conversations do YOU find enjoyable with her?
What kinds of conversations do you think SHE finds enjoyable?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I understand that there are no guarantees, but exploration is generally a good thing.
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BTW, I assume the work you have been doing with your counselor is pretty much all CBT based.
What does CBT based mean? With my C I basically just go in and talk about whatever is on my mind. He helps clarify my thoughts, usually ends up validating my POV (not necessarily agreeing with it, just making sure I understand that there are valid reasons for the way I feel and act). He spends a lot of time reassuring me that what I want is natural and that not everything is my fault.
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How about this, just as an idea... do you think it would help to break out the major problems you have identified with your C?
Sure, sounds like it could be useful. I'll make a skeleton list of what pops off the top of my head, and any item that looks worthy of exploration can be expounded upon. I'll also focus more on my issues, rather than hers.
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FOO issues
Physical and emotional abuse from father Emotional withdrawal from mother Missing adolescence Insecurity and low self-esteem
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Communication issues
Placating behavior Conflict avoidance Insecurity about my own POV Low skills in expressing my wants/needs
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Empathy and compassion issues
Difficulty relating to her low sex drive Difficulty relating to her low affection drive Her desire for me to just enjoy being with the family (watching TV or hanging with the ILs) versus my desire for family activities Difficulty understanding her need for alone time at the expense of time with each other. Difficulty understanding our vast difference in WOA.
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Boundary Issues
I have difficulty enforcing boundaries relating to my sexual, physical, and QT needs, and with respect to IL involvment.
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Self esteem and respect issues
I have intermittent low self-esteem I do not feel like she respects me I have difficulty respecting her POV on many of our R issues. She may have low self-esteem
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Biological/genetic/chemical issues
The only thing I can think of here is the size issue with sex. But I think once we get going with regular IC, we can fix that problem ... I hope.
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Ignorance
I am unsure of what she wants from me in this R She is unsure of what she wants from me in this R I don't feel like I convey my wants/needs in an effective way.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Does your wife appreciate the traits you like about yourself?
Yes I believe she does.
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Does she appreciate her own good traits?
I don't know. She does have a classic inability to receive a compliment (i.e. lots of hemming and hawing, very few times will just say "thanks").
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Also take the twists out of your appreciation of the marriage.
That is difficult.
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What kinds of conversations do YOU find enjoyable with her?
Conversations about ideas, the latest discoveries in science, debates over issues (not necessarily with her, just discussing the main points), sex talk (although those are mostly me initiating and her rolling her eyes), corny expressions of love (same as sex talk), discussing/planning our future, ironing out problems. Frankly, we don't have many of these convos.
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What kinds of conversations do you think SHE finds enjoyable?
Talking about the kids or parenting issues. We have many convos about this. But, I can see how this is an important thing for her, as this does take up a huge fraction of her life. And I don't mind having kids/parenting convos, I just wish we would have the other too.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
The counselor I go to doesn't use CBT either but one I saw briefly (not close enough to use regularly) does (He was a PhD and more methodical in his approach also). It seems like an effective way to work through a single issue.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Fearless: Also take the twists out of your appreciation of the marriage.
Chrome: That is difficult.
I hate to break it to you but the areas where someone says "this is difficult" are usually the areas that need the most work. But you knew that already didn't you???
Seriously, I do believe it is important to recognize and appreciate good things in your life, job, marriage, etc. Concentrating on the positives/strengths is where you can gain the most benefit.
Bear with me a little because I am listening to the "Go, Put your strengths to work" CDs and it's reminding me that besides work this is a useful tool in life. Focus on what's good and right and figure out how to apply those things more often. (This is not a simplistic ignoring of issues or problems, not burying your head in the sand, and is especially not about being unrealistic)
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I see similarities between our Rs with our SOs. I also see similarities between you and me and between your W and my H.
I always overthink convos, wondering constantly about the other persons feelings and thoughts. I am so worried that my actions will drive the person away that I sometimes hold back far too much.
I do this too.
I can see that I have often misconstrued other people's insecurities as a dislike for me.
Me too.
my W is very reserved with her emotions. She openly admits that she doesn't "spill the beans" or "tell all" to anyone. She has no close girlfriends
This is true of my H too.
So I can see that a big part of my current reservation about expressing emotion is probably due to banging my head against my W's wall of reservations for so many years. Most emotions I showed were either not returned at all, or responded to with a defensive reaction to push me away.
I can understand this. I'm sure it is more difficult because you're a man. I do withhold feelings and emotions from my H because I'm afraid he'll think badly about me for being so emotional, or because it will make him uncomfortable. I have felt shut out too. When it gets to the boiling point where I feel the need to speak out, I'm usually really emotional because I've been bottling it up, and H gets hit with a lot all at once. I know I need to do two things here: 1) as I have feelings, try to figure out if they are just caused by my insecurities, or if they are more than that and need to be addressed (easier said than done), and 2) speak out about those things that need to be addressed.
I can see clearly that I am afraid of my emotions, primarily because they are so extreme, but also because living where I live in the deep south, people just don't show emotions openly, especially men.
This is completely understandable, and it presents problems for emotional men all over the country. The northeast (where we live) isn't excactly known for emotional people either!
Have you ever looked at any of the HSP books? I'm thinking you might be an HSP. There is a section in the "The Highly Sensitive Person in Love" that covers highly sensitive men. It talks about how gender prejudices damage Rs for HSMs, resulting in potential troubles discussed under these headings:
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Feeling Like a Failed Man Love-Shyness Where's Daddy? Absent and Dismissive Fathers The Complexities Created by a Sensitive Boy's Sympathy for His Mother More on the Fear of Being Weak or Feminine
It goes on to talk about other ways that gender issues create problems in both HS women and men:
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Foreclosed Options (being overly cautious, turning down opportunities out of fear) Low Self-Esteem Poor Boundaries
If any of this rings a bell for you, you might want to get the book. It might give you some insight.
I hate to break it to you but the areas where someone says "this is difficult" are usually the areas that need the most work. But you knew that already didn't you???
No breaking needed, I'm already broken enough. I do know that intuitively, but I'm still in the process of moving that from my logical brain to my emotional brain. It is a long and difficult process.
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Seriously, I do believe it is important to recognize and appreciate good things in your life, job, marriage, etc. Concentrating on the positives/strengths is where you can gain the most benefit.
My W says the same things, and it is absolutely true. I have a good job, great kids, stable income, etc etc etc. But the thing I want the MOST in life is a passionate R. I realize that grasping for it won't get it. The way to get out of quicksand is to stop flailing, the best way to tread water is to float, neediness is very unattractive, etc etc etc. But without a passionate marriage, none of it seems worthwhile. That's just me.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Wow, this thread took off! One thought that came to me is how you remind me in some ways of my dad. He grew up in the country, with one sister. His mother was a very controlling and dominant woman, and definitely wore the pants in the family. I think she and my grandpa got along well because he just deferred to her. My dad often played alone because my grand mother thought they were better than other, both of them being college educated.
Consequently my dad seemed to not have good social skills, and had a lack of confidence and assertiveness. That makes sense to me because if he raised his head, my grandma would be sure to set him, my grandpa, the neighbors, all in line. So my dad never got to feel his own “power,” his own independence. But he did want that, so he developed P/A tendencies to “sneak” around behind his mother’s back.
The root similarity I wonder about with you is not in the obvious stuff, like dealing with an abusive parent (though I wouldn’t say she was “abusive”), but with you not knowing what it is like to yield your own power. My dad still seems trapped in this issue. He obviously does not like strong controlling women (like my mom) and rebels against them in a P/A way, but given free reign, he is not comfortable in exercising his “power” or influence over others, even though they really need such direction from him.
Do you think you have a similar issue? It is one thing to lack “power” and work to get it, by being alpha or what have you, but it is another thing to actually get it. Yielding it can cause guilt feelings, like who are you to be bossing someone else, or telling them what to do, or making some major decision, or pushing someone else to face their own issues and not rescue.
This is not an easy thing to take on if you have never had it, much less felt like you ever deserved it. The karmic fit is that your wife seems afraid of the power that you need to become comfortable in wielding. So she might be holding you back. That is going to be her issue to confront (along with many others, I am sure). But being a leader does not mean conquering demons for your wife. It might mean showing the strength she needs to conquer those demons by herself. The hard part is telling her to do that, “pushing” her out on her own, and avoiding the need to rescue. Sometimes you need to wield the “power” and not feel guilty about it.
I have no doubt that 50% of the problems in your M is due to your W. So the harder she resists something, the more certain you can be that there is a major blockage that that needs to be addressed. Working through those issues will not make the marriage get better in the short run. Things will get worse. You need to be ready to weather this. But there is no other way, except being stuck for years.
I do agree with your C that you have been living your missed adolescence. My dad went through that too. Don’t feel guilty about it. It is now out of your system. You can put those EAs behind you and dissociate from them. They were just another learning experience you did not get to have as a kid. They closed a MAJOR loophole of curiosity you had.
I do recall you speaking of many of the things you listed. I do not recall anything about your withdrawal from your mother. Why was that, if she was the only safe haven from your dad?
Does any of this ring a bell, or am I completely off base? I have the impression that you understand your FOO issues quite well. What may not have been explored yet are the secondary and tertiary effects of that FOO on your M. Those are a little harder to identify.
I do withhold feelings and emotions from my H because I'm afraid he'll think badly about me for being so emotional, or because it will make him uncomfortable.
See this is one of those places I have a problem. I've been told by many people that women like men that can show emotion, even by Fearless earlier today. And that is truly who I am. I have been criticized in the past for excessive drama, but that is who I am. Maybe it is another facet of my finally unrepressed adolescence. But I do notice that with my W, showing of emotion is not well received. I guess the key is how much emotion do you show, and I will say that I have a problem with letting it get out of control. So perhaps the problem is my W doesn't know how far I am going to go at a particular moment.
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When it gets to the boiling point where I feel the need to speak out, I'm usually really emotional because I've been bottling it up, and H gets hit with a lot all at once.
That is part of the problem with me too. I was really poor at expressing my feelings about the sexual rejection I have experienced throughout most of my marriage, so I tended to just bottle it up and withdraw. But my problem is I never really exploded until the A.
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1) as I have feelings, try to figure out if they are just caused by my insecurities, or if they are more than that and need to be addressed (easier said than done), and 2) speak out about those things that need to be addressed.
An excellent plan, but as you say, difficult. For emotional people, it is easy to get wrapped up in the moment and lose sight of logic and the big picture.
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The northeast (where we live) isn't excactly known for emotional people either!
I believe that, but I have had more positive experiences visiting other areas of the country than where I live. In the rural south there is the stereotype of the stoic farmer who likes to fish and hunt, and only shows emotions at football games. I really have like the times I spent in Boston where there was passion about politics, a sense of freedom to express yourself however you like, a real openness to strangers on the street, and a sense of community that I believe the South has lost.
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Have you ever looked at any of the HSP books? I'm thinking you might be an HSP. There is a section in the "The Highly Sensitive Person in Love" that covers highly sensitive men. It talks about how gender prejudices damage Rs for HSMs, resulting in potential troubles discussed under these headings:
I have been following that thread a little and see some truth in it. I'll check out the books. Thanks for the tip. I'd say all of those headings, perhaps with the exception of dismissive fathers and sympathy for mother (which I do feel, but I don't think at an unhealthy level, she has had a really hard life).
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I'm also curious about your Enneagram type. I really relate to a lot of what you wrote.
Well, I took the test quickly and scored high on Type 4, Type 6, and Type 7. I can see how I am in the negative loops of all three (fear of being defective, fear of being abandoned, and fear of being deprived) and do the negative actions (indulging in fantasy, distrusting others, and numbly seeking sensations). I am moderately 2 and 9, and can see both of those unhealthy loops at play also, especially the illusion of union/accomodating thing. I scored very low on type 1 and type 8, not surprisingly. I might share that stuff with my C next time.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
