It makes me worry that I will never meet his standards That is a very dangerous feeling IMHO and one that I hope he can acknowledg & take very seriously. Take care, remember everyday does't have to be therapy.
Mrs.cac wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------- On your second point, I'm not sure I'm quite getting your analogy. Am I the grabber or is he? -------------------------------------------------------------
He is the grabber. He started it and now doesn't quite know what to do with it. That's why the general rule around here is, "if you start it, expect to have to change yourself along the way".
All of us that have had success have learned that little piece of truth.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Cheese that I'm looking for but can't find: 1) H accepting responsibility for his half of the marriage 2) H telling me that he is committed to doing whatever it takes to try to fix the problems.
Way too broad terms folks!
Me coming from a POV of what do these things look like? After all I come from Mars, so explain how I could measure your H taking responsibility for his half of the M?
Is it bringing home Meat Lovers pizza from Dominos on Tuesday? If he brought home a Veggie Lovers pizza, then he only half loves you???
On #2, name one thing that would be measurable by an outside observer, that would indicate cac4 doing something “committed.” He did give you specific instructions about backing up the files to the company computer one or more times.
Me being Mr. Cac4; Hay sweetie, I will commit to the M, but first backup that financial stuff to my company account.
but it's looking like ALL of the tunnels are cheeseless So, describe what a chees-filled tunnel might look like to you so I can understand what to do. It's good practice, OK?
he just says that he's an @sshole and that's the way it is. This is not helpful. Not good cac4. You might feel like an @sshole sometimes. Wouldn’t you rather feel like you are doing some things right but getting less than anticipated results?
I've asked him several times to read Michele's book again, but he hasn't. I liked "Divorce Remedy" my #1 simple book.
How about you both read one chapter and work with that one chapter. Agree ahead of time that each chapter isn't the be all, tell all for the M.
Harley's "His Needs, Her Needs" is easier to understand, but to me states all men have the same needs as other men, all women have the same needs as other women, which is a little too simplistic.
(copied from the site0 Marriage Builders® Forms and Questionnaires In the left-hand column, you will find free resources currently available for you to use to strengthen your marriage. Use them only after you have read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, and have created a plan of reconciliation based on those concepts.
I have the MWD audio CD’s “Keep Love Alive” and another poster has some video tapes. They are well worth a try.
There are several MP3 sites that I or someone else can list if you think you will have the time to listen to a broad group of relationship subjects.
Me coming from a POV of what do these things look like? After all I come from Mars, so explain how I could measure your H taking responsibility for his half of the M?
This is what NOP wrote to me yesterday:
Quote:
Don't make the mistake of trying to assess blame in the relationship. You be 100% responsible for your half of the relationship. That includes having sex with hubby. Hubby needs to be 100% responsible for his half of the relationship. That includes treating you with respect.
I realize now that I haven't figured out exactly what. I thought this was about how each of us has contributed to the problems. I have written about some of mine on the BB. Once we figure this out and then figure out what each of us needs from the the M (our responsibilities), we can try to meet those responsibilities.
On #2, name one thing that would be measurable by an outside observer, that would indicate cac4 doing something “committed.” He did give you specific instructions about backing up the files to the company computer one or more times.
I'm not talking about the finances! What I mean is that I want him to say, "yes, I'm committed to trying to figure out how to fix our problems." Then he does what NOP asked him: figures out specifically what he needs to do. He will need my help because only I know what I need. I know that physical touch is his love language; mine are words of affirmation and quality time. So I work on being open and enthusiastic about ML and whatever else he needs, and he works on giving me some quality time, i.e. time without the TV. He has been working on this somewhat. Words of affirmation, for me, right now, boils down to positive feedback. Last night, I wanted him to acknowledge last week's sexual encounters and say something like, "yes, last week was an improvement. I really felt closer to you, and I'd love it if we could have more weeks like that." He'd have found himself ML again last night if he had said something like that. (He did compliment my "tasty dinner," which was good.) But, since sex is the reason we're here, and it's such a big issue, I need feedback on how I'm doing, and I'd like it to be balanced (some positive, some constructive).
Even when we're having a disagreement like the one that prompted this thread, he could diffuse things if he could reach out to me in some way, i.e., give me a hug and tell me we'll work it out. I've gone over to him and hugged him during arguments, and it really seems to stop the momentum of the argument. That would have made a huge difference. I have told him this.
A cheese-filled tunnel might be 1) acknowledgement of his role in our problems; 2) stating his appreciation for my efforts (he has done it here a few times, but I'd love for him to say it to me); 3) reassuring me that yes, he is going to do all he can to work on fixing the problems and taking action; 4) agreeing to read one of the books I mentioned (he did this tonight! :)). I need to see some type of positive action on his part.
Thanks for the recommendations! I'll check them out.
If I keep pushing, he just says that he's an @sshole and that's the way it is. This is not helpful.
Just wanted to comment on this… at the risk of wearing out my welcome on deflections, well, this sounds like a deflection to me. I think CAC takes your “pushing” as an attack on who he is. Remember, that is how he was trained to hear these things. So unless a comment is a direct compliment, it comes through as a criticism. Black or white. That puts him into self deprecating victim mode.
Again, remember that based on what you said, his father was verbally abusive to him, and since kids cannot assert themselves against adults, he can either rebel and fight back, or resign himself to the message that he is no good.
So your comments now put him in victim mode. The easiest way to avoid this “criticism” is to shut it off. He is thinking that he might as well, he believes you are already criticizing him. So he beats you at your own game. He demeans himself more that you ever intended, which takes away your thunder. There is little more you can say. He deflects you and he stays safe.
IMO, the way to counter this is to not accept his self deprecation, since it isn’t even close to the truth. Just tell him to stop hiding under such an excuses, that he is not an @sshole, that he is good, responsible, caring, etc, and that you still love him, but he needs to answer your questions.
I've asked him several times to read Michele's book again, but he hasn't. He hasn't even agreed to do so. He can't make heads or tails out of Schnarch so he isn't likely to pick that up again. I started reading it and trying to decipher it for him, but that didn't work either.
I want to keep trying to explain this getting in touch with your emotions thing, if you want to work on it. A little earlier in this thread you replied to me:
Cobra: I know you never claimed to be angry, just unhappy, maybe depressed, disappointed. That still sounds like repressed anger to me, especially considering what you’ve told us. ...
CAC: anger isn't synonymous w/ any of those other things.
I’m not saying anger is synonymous with these things, rather these things CAN be symptomatic of repressed anger. This is FOO stuff, but the reason I’m pushing on the FOO is that you don’t seem to know why you are angry. Do you know? Can you identify exactly what is making you angry?
Nopkin said of you to MrsCAC: He is the grabber. He started it and now doesn't quite know what to do with it.
I’m not sure what Nopkins was referring to, but I interpret it to be your attempt to get your W’s attention and turn the M around, and now that you’ve done that, you’ve withdrawn into you shell. You don’t know what to do with it. Why? You should be happy she is engaging with you.
The problem you face is the same one I faced, as well as Nopkins and many others. We see the problems in our Ws and our M and try to fix it. What we never saw coming was the things we did to cause our Ws to complain about us. We’ve opened a Pandora’s box. It came back on us.
Cobra: What fear are you talking about, what “Fear that something bad may have happened.”
CAC: Because it has before, and it continues to be so. revealed vulnerabilities can be used as weapons. I'm not going to go any deeper into it than that; you'll just have to take my word for it. In THIS case...she said she let the cows out. that's bad. I reacted negatively. That was FEAR that the cows were out, and I would have difficulty getting them back in. turns out, she didn't let the cows out. whew! But NO...can't put that genie (my reaction) back in the bottle. I had an emotional reaction, and now I MUST PAY! but wait--I'm supposed to be "in touch" with my feelings and express them and yadda yadda yadda...which one is it???
What are you saying here? What I’m hearing is that you had an emotional reaction, got angry about something, then got called on it. I don’t know what went on, but I do believe you felt like you had to PAY. Have you ever asked yourself why mere words from someone can cause such intense emotional pain for you? Who did this to you? Your W says your father did. Is this true?
Do you know that he was really angry with himself, not you? I’m willing to guess he was also angry with abuse he received from his father. Could that be so? The point is that YOU are not bad, you are not worthless, you are not incompetent. You are a good caring man, just as your father was. But you were both hurt. Your father and your grandfather did not intend to hurt, they just didn’t know better. This is not about assessing blame, but trying to understand and therefore release the anger. Forgiveness is very important here.
Back to your statement…. Revealed vulnerabilities CANNOT be used as weapons. No one can MAKE you feel hurt. You control that, whether you believe it or not. When you say “I had an emotional reaction, and now I MUST PAY!” who is making you pay? If you feel you must pay, then it is something you decide to do yourself. No one, not even your wife, can make you pay. Yet you believe that you must. Why? Because you’ve been made to pay before, right? And you were made to believe that you HAD to pay, right?
I don't dance to gain anyone's approval...never did. If anything, that made matters worse irt my parents, etc. They'd have loved for me to dance for them...I wouldn't do it.
Good for you, so you weren’t a push over. But even though you wouldn’t dance, your parents could still make you feel like crap, right? It becomes a hollow victory. Maybe they couldn’t make you physically do things, but they could still lay on the guilt trip, they could still make you feel like you paid. Well, you don’t have to pay anymore, and with the understanding and knowledge your W is developing, I’m willing to bet she will do her utmost to not make you ever feel like you have to pay. Ever again.
This is shame based FOO, and it is one of the most toxic. Try to recognize it and let it go. Shame is predicated on poor boundaries. Kids cannot establish boundaries with parents. They have to take in the crap. But as an adult, you don’t have to accept that you are “bad” and deserving of shame. You can elect not to “pay.” If you mess up, own it and go on, but do not demean yourself and do not ever think you have to “pay.”
Once you can realize that, then you might also see that it is ok to have emotional reactions. You can do so safely without fear of “paying.” You don’t ever have to be afraid of having emotions. Do you see the cycle this shame has trapped you in? It is very dangerous and it is self perpetuating.
Because you were trained by your parents (through not fault of theirs) to feel bad about yourself, you develop a negative self image (not your fault). Anything bad that happens you blame on yourself. That makes you angry (since you know it is not true, but you have littlechoice), which makes you lash out. When you lash out you “pay.” So to avoid lashing out, you try not to feel, since that is where the anger starts. Without feelings, you can’t get mad and you don’t have to “pay.” You are in fear of yourself. Your are in fear of your own anger, and that is a battle you cannot win and one that will drive anyone crazy and seriously depressed.
Try to see that it is safe now to feel, to express emotions, to show anger. You do not have to fear paying anymore. Set up strong boundaries to protect yourself. You do not need to internalize this shame and hurt. You can let down your walls. Your wife will read this and she will also realize the trap you have been caught in all your life. She can help you. She can be a safe haven. But you will have to put yourself out there and have a little faith. Just try it. She won’t bite. Faith is how you get in touch with your emotions and your pain.
Just popping in to say that H agreed to read "The Way of the Superior Man." I picked it up this morning (and it looks very good), along with "Divorce Busting," "The Divorce Remedy," "I Only Say This Because I Love You," and "The Highly Sensitive Person in Love" (that would be me). I had forgotten how much I LOVE bookstores.
