DIY wrote: ------------------------------------------------- f a person (BB) doesn't deny their issues, but they don't see how they can changes, AND they also seem to be fairly happy campers, why on earth would they want to change? They (BB) will change if I am about to leave the R. but then, there is that worrysome air (my feelings of guilt) of blackmail. -------------------------------------------------
Be careful not to confuse negotiation with blackmail.
Having expectations of a relationship is perfectly legitimate. A simple statement that you are about to end the relationship due to having your WELL STATED needs remain unmet, is not blackmail.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
If a person (BB) doesn't deny their issues, but they don't see how they can changes, AND they also seem to be fairly happy campers, why on earth would they want to change? They (BB) will change if I am about to leave the R. but then, there is that worrysome air (my feelings of guilt) of blackmail.
Then that is your choice to stay in a M that is unhappy, right? Even if BB says she has issues but doesn't know how to change, that's not the key piece of info. It's whether or not she is unhappy enough to do anything about it. And yes, you can force someone else down to your level of unhappiness and make it work. My M is a good example. H was depressed, he left, that made me extremely unhappy, and the rest you know about. In the end it can work, but not everyone has the stomach for it I guess. Granted, H and I both come from psychological training so we have some insight into what does and does not work but that still didn't prevent us from getting into a mess of a M. The place it really helped was in rebuilding. Everyone makes mistakes, but correcting them is the hard part. Takes lots of effort and I'll say again, rewriting some of the history. If you do not believe in at least some basics, like changing your thoughts, can change your feelings, can change your behaviors etc, I think it is a much harder road. LFL
having your WELL STATED needs remain unmet, is not blackmail.
I personally agree with you NOP. It’s more I don't like radical choices. But who does?
I don't know why CeMar's insisting on several points he said he wants in a soul mate type M, like his W swallowing before he feels he is desired.
My mother ate and loved raw oysters, so if I was her real son, I should too? No way.
I read MoJo's post about GGG "good", "giving" and "game".I'm going to weigh in as the semi-contrarian here in Cemar-land. post 991710 from yesterday It made a lot of sense and seemed the practical thing to do.
Be careful not to confuse negotiation with blackmail. Nop, it just feels like blackmail when the choices get to the extreme level.
BB points out her age, her lack of hormones, her long lack of desire, her belief that most women want to give up sex and are relieved when their H loses interest in sex or has ED. BB has some beliefs that are similar to Ms. HD; sex is mostly for a man’s pleasure/lust need.
Add in, for women w/o hormones sex becomes more of an uncomfortable chore rather than something pleasurable.
BB most common deflection is similat to the following, “Petting the dog is as soothing, no one gets any UTIs, and it less messy.” IOW, BB sort of wants note from the Dr. no sex unless it an emergency.
Of course BB likes to be sought after, chased, and caught, just not pinned down put in a position of having sex more than a couple times a year.
I won't speculate about Mrs. Choc, Mrs. CeMar, or anyone else. BB wants me, but in limiter ways and in limited amounts.
Sometimes I get the idea, one day BB will bring home that Dr’s slip, excusing her from sex. So that is my fear that is growing right now.
Two years ago, I was hoping a change in attitude/behavior would improve our SL. I know if this was 10 years ago, attitude/behavior, was the problem. Now I wonder how much is age/medical, that is why sometimes I think along the lines of what is blackmail and what is negoating.
I am reading "Wild at Heart" and "The Man in the Mirror". I see connections between me lacking self-confidence in FOO situations that influenced some of the things I did once M, lacking some experiences in life, being successful in many years of life then taking hits that undermined my confidence and strained our M life. Like LFL and others here are pushing, behavior changes that solve problems are what is to be sought out.
I see many places where many couples like us would have D. I see the strength’s where we had help, that kept us together. Where we kept us together by just working through day to day hardships.
In some ways I see BB acting like she did the work and now it's time to get what she wants and I see myself thinking I did all this work and this is all the (not much) fun I can have? If I want more I have to put OP through the wringer and think; Why?
It's whether or not she is unhappy enough to do anything about it. I ?forced? the BB wanting a new one-level house issue. BB just called for an orthopedic appointment. Not deflecting LFL, just something related.
Even if BB says she has issues but doesn't know how to change I know me making suggestions will only keep the pot from boiling or as some people say, avoid digging the hole deeper. BB has to find her way out of some of our marital holes.
My M is a good example. H was depressed, he left, that made me extremely unhappy, and the rest you know about. Yes, I followed your thread closely. Maybe a little too close!
I also respected lots of your to-the-point advice. For example, last night we had a little kiss and make-up time. BB was saying one thing (sort of distancing) but I was reading her body language as wanting to be closer. I was doing the try something and see how it works, rather than listening for verbal clues.
Granted, H and I both come from psychological training so we have some insight into what does and does not work I am aware of all of the experience and professional skills people have that post on this forum. I am also surprised in some ways that the more knowledgeable people have as many R problems, but then again, I realize people are people with similar wants and emotions. We drink the same Coke/Mountain Dew/etc from a can and tie our shoe laces about the same way. I can see why our individual problems have similarities.
I also see where education and learned experiences can help make improvements to most people's marriage.
Everyone makes mistakes, but correcting them is the hard part. Takes lots of effort and I'll say again, rewriting some of the history. If you do not believe in at least some basics, like changing your thoughts, can change your feelings, can change your behaviors etc, I think it is a much harder road. I have no disagreement with any of this LFL. I will go as far as saying even Albert Ellis has some valid points.
Right now I would like it if BB and I would pick a model/book and use it to work on a few elements of our R. This is so we can use similar terms with similar meanings.
Right now, BB's term for working on the R is me throwing my business things in the trash and spending lot’s of time adoring her. I want her to stop buying or wanting to buy things and be happier with what we have. Of course I want more PT, sex, less "I want xyz" from BB, and to hear the words "lover boy" directed at me, not the d dog.
Quote: ----------------------------------------- In some ways I see BB acting like she did the work and now it's time to get what she wants and I see myself thinking I did all this work and this is all the (not much) fun I can have? If I want more I have to put OP through the wringer and think; Why? -----------------------------------------
Maybe you need to look at it in a different way. What amount of BB's comfort is derived from your day to day contributions to the relationship? She is getting most of what she wants from you, correct?
I understand you not wanting to pressure your wife, but in reality, your sexual needs are pretty simple. You aren't asking her for monkey sex, just the comfort of her intimate companionship on a more frequent basis.
Unfortunately, it may be that the only way to reach her is to withdraw some of the comfort your provide in the relationship, in order to highlight that which is missing from her.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
DIY wrote: -------------------------------------------------- Of course BB likes to be sought after, chased, and caught, just not pinned down put in a position of having sex more than a couple times a year. --------------------------------------------------
So you chase her. I am not surprised that you pursue her or that she likes the pursuit, it's just that you continue doing so knowing that she is going to reject you 99% of the time.
Go do something somewhere else.
If you don't like the dancing idea, then go buy a nice used fishing boat and learn to fish if you don't already know how. Invite her to go whenever the mood strikes YOU If she doesn't want to, then go by yourself, or find a good fishing buddy.
Let me be really candid with you, Lou. From what you describe, your wife wants you to decide that you are old, then decide to play "old". I understand a bit about "aching in the places where I used to play", but you need to fully face what she is asking of you.
It is clear that she is ready and willing to wait you out. The question is, how long can you realistically continue to wait? One year? Five?
If you do wait and eventually your sex drive diminishes to negligibility, how are you going to feel about the way you have been treated?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
What Cemar and Choc fail to realize is that they are the ones with the problem. Their wives merely have what they want.
Let me see if I understand this. My wife has everything that she wants in a relationship, mainly someone to just be there. Since I am the one that wants FAR more from the relationship, it is I who have the problem to address. So I should force the issue, to work with the wife to solve the issue, and if we can not work togeter on this issue, then I (the one with the problem), should take the risk and divorce her and find someone that DOES want a more physical life. I think this is the way Scnarch recommends. Did I get it or am I way off base?
Good grief, what the heck is wrong with wanting oral sex? Oral sex is BASIC sex to me. you make it sound like an extreme request. What I want is something that a WHOLE lot of women on here LIKE to do. I personally LOVE to give oral sex, so it is very hard to understand someone that would have HANGUPS about it. I love BJ's. There is an incredibly strong EMOTIONAL element in BJ's, BJ's take the relationship to different and HIHGER level. Sex is not about the orgasam, that is just a wonderful side benefit. Sex is all about the INTIMACY of the moment, it is about TRUST. Straight sex is easy because the intimacy levels are LOW. Go on to oral sex or other type sex and the comfort zone of the LD is starting to be pushed. A women that does not like to give her man BJ's is making a BIG negative statement about her value of the relationship.
The whole problem with SSM's is there really are no good compromise positions.
Oh Really?! Then that must mean that even though my H doesn't do the stuff that I would REALLY like sexually that I must not be happy, and that we DON'T have a very happy & healthy marriage now. I mean, that is the logic that goes along with your line of thinking here. I'm here to tell you that line of thinking is crap...and it's self-defeatest.
I'm here to tell you....WE HAVE COMPROMISED, and we ARE very happy now. I'M very happy. According to him HE'S very happy too, and I believe him...because he genuinely appears happier than ever in his behaviors.
Know what the biggest change in our M has been? His behavior outside of the bedroom, and MY behavior outside of the bedroom. It has made us closer, it has made us happier, AND it HAS rolled over into the bedroom.
I don't believe you are really concerned about your W being happy in this marriage or about compromise (or you would try it), just that YOU are getting what YOU want.
Also, there is nothing wrong with wanting oral sex, but STOP comparing your wife to alot of other women. She is an individual, she is not me, she is not LFL, she is not Mojo or any of the other women on this BB...if SHE doesn't like it, that's what you have to deal with. Stop wishing she were behaving like other women and learn to deal with the woman she is!!!
