I have found it extremely helpful to understand my FOO issues. This knowledge has helped me to see that I'm not inherently flawed, which is helping me to change my behavior. I do not blame my parents. I understand that they did the best job they were capable of doing. They did not have at their disposal the wealth of information that we have available today.
FOO issues in no way excuse bad adult behavior. As adults, we are solely responsible for our behavior and for the choices we make, regardless of our background.
H is fond of this quote from George Santayana: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I think this is applicable to married relationships and parenting. If we don't understand the FOO issues, I think we're more likely to repeat the behavior of our parents, and pass the dysfunction along to our children.
Nice summary of FOO. I think you mirror my thoughts on this too. I want to add a few extra ideas, because I don’t think there is enough exploration of FOO. This is why. IMO the people in this board make up one of the worst subsets of relationships. Those couples with really bad marriages D and generally move on from this board, maybe to Mojo’s new home. Those with not so bad issues can resolve them with some help and guidance and then leave this board. So those who are here are mostly those how are stuck and have significant issues. Anything that can help resolve these issues is important. FOO is just one of these tools.
Off the top of my head I can think of several categories of issues that keep couples stuck:
FOO issues Communication issues Empathy and compassion issues Boundary Issues Self esteem and respect issues Ignorance
This list may not be complete, it may be all wrong, but I think much of it reflects what I have seen. I can think of many problems in my M and drop them into the above categories. Each category requires a different approach to resolve its issues. If you cannot categories your issues, how do you know that you are doing the right work to cure it? Not everything lends itself to CBT.
LFL,
You talk a lot about how people on this board deflect. Maybe you are using the FOO issues to avoid making legitimate changes in yourself. Not that you are not changing for the better, but I think you may get a lot farther by not focusing AS MUCH on the FOO.
I can tell you that identification of FOO issues with myself and my W were critical for us to overcome our problems in the initial stages of recovery. There was so much anger and resentment and things were so tangled up, it was very difficult to identify exactly what our complaints were. The value of understanding your FOO is that you can identify which issues are due to you, to your spouse, to your parents, etc. Once those have been segregated, then each can be addressed and resolved individually, or not. It’s very hard to fix something if you don’t know what is broken. Step one always is to identify the problem.
It's like the person who has cancer and all they focus on is how they got it instead of looking for workable treatments. Wastes a lot of precious time.
Your argument assumes emotional trauma can be cured by treating symptoms without it ever coming back. That is not true. You know PTSD requires desensitization to the trauma. There is little other way to deal with these types of things. CBT is only partially successful with PTSD. The adult attachment approach seems to have one of the better success rates. That involves addressing the source of the trauma. In the case of CAC, that means his FOO. IMO your cancer analogy is not comparable.
You can blind yourself to other approaches when you see things in such a narrow way. But like you said, you are certain you are on the right track so I'm sure you won't seriously consider this option.
Actually I think I do subscribe to all other approaches, but for CAC, I do not think he is quite ready to begin that yet. In my M, we do not focus on FOO anymore. I would say we are in the CBT stage, doing things for one another because of our new awareness of each other’s needs, as well as each other’s hot buttons.
Maybe other's will not get so bogged down on the FOO stuff though. We CAN re-write our histories Cobra.
Of course we can rewrite history, once we know what needs to be rewritten.
Anyone who has gone through a horrible childhood and manages to become a highly functioning adult does it all the time. I think it is safe to say they do not blame their childhoods on how they act and think today.
Are you really sure about this? People can become highly functioning, and they can do so without blaming their childhood, but they might also end up blaming their spouse, like CAC is doing. Or Lil’s BF.
If any of what you say is true, then why have you been stuck in your M for so long? You are a professional, so I assume you practice what you preach. Yet it seems that only recently you can to some FOO based insight about being judged that helped move you and therefore your M forward. You were able to see why you were reacting as you were and where that came from. Why couldn't CBT do that for you? Because it’s the wrong tool for that particular category.
I have no problem with CBT, but if there is a major FOO issue underlying things, no matter how much CBT you do, those issues and the associated feelings and anxiety will still keep coming up and you will keep needing to apply one CBT bandage after another trying to find peace. There is no one size fits all approach, but I see FOO as step one, and many here on this board are still at step one.
I think it is safe to say they do not blame their childhoods on how they act and think today. I doubt they blame their parents or call them narcissistic, or harbor lots of anger at how their mother treated them.
Do you think I suggest people blame their parents for their problems? Dysfunctional parent do not mean to harm their kids. They are ignorant. They kids adapt as they must to survive in a toxic environment. It is what is, it is not anyone’s fault. Resolving FOO is not meant to harbor resentment, but to understand and let go of resentment. FOO is generational, so stopping it is very important, especially for the kids.
And even if they have done the most complete FOO psychological research, they probably did not become healthy and happy until they made a conscious choice to do so.
Agreed. But how can you make a conscious decision to be happy when you don’t even know why you’re upset? Why are depressed people depressed? They can take medication, do the CBT thing, and still remain depressed. What is the MLC thing all about? Can they segregate their issues into categories like I suggest above? I’m not saying FOO is the cure, but it could help, it could help a lot, it can augment other approaches, and I’m petty sure it won’t hurt.
Cobra I've never denied that FOO can play a role in many psychological/relational problems. I just think your emphasis and assumptions are a bit much.
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it seems that only recently you can to some FOO based insight about being judged that helped move you and therefore your M forward.
Like this comment. Why did you assume my problem with being judged came from my FOO. It didn't. But you made some good points.
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It’s very hard to fix something if you don’t know what is broken. Step one always is to identify the problem.
I can pretty much agree with this but again, I think it's often enough to know "The person was sexually abused by a parent" and not necessary to go over every nuance of the abuse and the trauma caused by the family. That is a given and you rarely have to tell the person they have been "done wrong" by their parents. In fact, you mentioned PTSD treatment. Actually CBT has been fairly effective and if anything, getting into the family issues often makes the PTSD worse. Reliving the traumas is not always in the person's best interest. Rewriting the history is a better way to go, but again, just my opinion.
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IMO your cancer analogy is not comparable.
I was not saying cancer and relationship issues are the same, I was just saying that focusing so much on Cause can waste important time getting to Solutions.
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If any of what you say is true, then why have you been stuck in your M for so long?
Well, if you mean by "so long" that from the start of my M I have not resolved the sexual issues, you got me. But if you mean by "so long" that my M is unsuccessful considering what I have been through the past 2 1/2 years, that's ridiculous. And it was changing my attitudes, thoughts, and behaviors that made the most impact on my M today, not delving into FOO.
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You are a professional, so I assume you practice what you preach.
I don't know why you keep bringing up My credentials. There are plenty of people on this board with more training and experience who frankly are much more dysfunctional than me (no offense to anyone). Just making a point. EVERYONE is going to go through stressful times and have problems. I am quite proud of the progress I have made in a few short years. And yes it is fairly new, but let's see where people are in 10 years and then we can comment.
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Do you think I suggest people blame their parents for their problems? Dysfunctional parent do not mean to harm their kids. They are ignorant. They kids adapt as they must to survive in a toxic environment. It is what is, it is not anyone’s fault. Resolving FOO is not meant to harbor resentment, but to understand and let go of resentment.
Some of that is true but again you make so many assumptions about people's families that your point can get lost in your approach. For instance what you said to Fearless:
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This yelling by your dad was not good. Your justifying it and making excuses for his behavior was not good, even though you are technically right. It puts you in the position of playing arbitrator, a position WAAAY to powerful for a 14 year old. Just because your parents were able to work through this and come to an understanding does not mean that other couples can. Your dad was not being honest and was instead projecting his anger and frustration onto others to relieve himself. Do you see that?
I just don't see how this is helpful in the long run. You make statements like this all the time that get people bogged down in past events. And frankly, you make statements that also could be totally false about other people's histories as well. That's where it seems more like you are just on a mission to prove a point despite your knowledge of the facts. I'm really sincere Cobra when I say to Let Go a little bit. Your W would probably feel much closer to you in the long run and intimacy would build that much quicker. You don't always have to be right.
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how can you make a conscious decision to be happy when you don’t even know why you’re upset? Why are depressed people depressed? They can take medication, do the CBT thing, and still remain depressed. What is the MLC thing all about? Can they segregate their issues into categories like I suggest above? I’m not saying FOO is the cure, but it could help, it could help a lot, it can augment other approaches, and I’m petty sure it won’t hurt.
Yes, FOO can help sometimes but not always and frankly, yes, it can harm at times. People who are forced to face their demons when they are not emotionally ready to do so can spiral down quickly. So your premise that you need to delve into FOO and THEN start CBT etc is often not effective. I think you need to do CBT etc FIRST and then if the person is in a fairly stable place you can get into more of the traumatic FOO issues. But even then, it may not be necessary if the person is functioning well enough in the present. Again, we can agree to disagree.
If a person knows there are problems from FOO, then I agree that is usually all that is needed. Details on what happened may be overkill. But take my comments to Fearless for example. The reason I said those things to her is because I believe she does not see the issues at play which cause her to bend over backward to please people. She rationalizes a lot of things as just wanting to be fair, to understand both sides, etc., but she shows a lot of anxiety when disagreements occur. That stuff with her parents seemed normal to her. I saw a lot of dysfunction. I also seem some denial on her part. I don’t think any of that is a major problem, but it is there all the same. She can decide how important it is.
As for really serious FOO, like sexual abuse or rape, I don’t see any use in dragging up the past as long as there is no advantage to doing so. Remember Happy Giant’s wife? We suspected he has some sort of past abuse, but she would not confront it, would not go to counseling, and it had a major impact on the marriage. Well, I think that is one situation where her FOO must be explored, maybe not in detail, but just to help her work past it. Maybe CBT would work. Maybe not. But she is a rare case on this board.
From what I’ve seen, Chrome has one of the worst FOOs on here. He was already spiraling down and I think he has done a good job of facing all his issues and pulling himself back up.
Maybe you see this as a mission for me to prove some point, but I just call what I see. I also don’t see how you or anyone else can determine if a person is “functioning well enough in the present.” If they project enough anger or reactivity to begin to show a pattern to cause someone to suspect FOO issues, then maybe they could be functioning a lot better.
I’ll tell you what I see. I see you as still being reactive, just as you were toward NOP, something about being judged I think. People have asked me about my FOO. I’ve gone through it so much it is old news to me. I am quite apathetic toward it now, though at one time I was very reactive about it, and in complete denial about a lot of things. I like where I am now a lot better.
I’ll tell you what I see. I see you as still being reactive, just as you were toward NOP, something about being judged I think.
There is nothing wrong with reactivity in and of itself. In fact, my reactivity with Nop was very beneficial to me. I'm a woman Cobra. I can be very emotional. I could have used that reactivity to my advantage or disadvantage. That is where thought processes are critical. I happen to like the fact that I am emotional and also smart enough to realize when my emotions are getting the best of me. Feel the emotion and then change if need be. I think that is better than the person who is unemotional from the start. Much harder for that person to "get it."
But take my comments to Fearless for example. The reason I said those things to her is because I believe she does not see the issues at play which cause her to bend over backward to please people. She rationalizes a lot of things as just wanting to be fair, to understand both sides, etc., but she shows a lot of anxiety when disagreements occur. That stuff with her parents seemed normal to her. I saw a lot of dysfunction. I also seem some denial on her part. I don’t think any of that is a major problem, but it is there all the same. She can decide how important it is.
Cobra,
I made 2 posts this morning about this subject on the thread "Tangent to HD - Cognitive behavior."
I feel that you do not "read" my responses with correct emotions. First anxiety is not what I feel with disagreements. I feel excitement and passion. I love disagreements. I think you read my passion and excitement for anxiety. Not surprising because in written word it would be hard to see the difference. The rationalization part I am not sure what you mean. I see rationalization as making excuses and not as searching for reason. I search for reason. There is no excuse to be made for my dad yelling. He was upset. The REASONING with my mom was not to rationalize dad's yelling but to explain what his yelling was about. I believe that is a significant difference.
The whole denial thing - I don't know. I just feel like when I disagree with some of your conclusions, you dismiss me as deflecting or denying.
In addition the whole misreading people here on the board is very easy. I am amused at the exchanges between Lillie and CAC4. Lillie is obviously feeling very emotional toward CAC4 but as an outsider I just don't get it. There is something about CAC4's WORDS that connect with Lillie and make her think her BF and CAC4 are alike. While they may use the same words and react to lillie in a similar manner, does NOT mean they are alike. They may react to her the SAME WAY for COMPLETELY different reasons.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Quote: ----------------------------------------------------- From what I've seen, Chrome has one of the worst FOOs on here. -----------------------------------------------------
There are people here with far worse issues than Chrome.
Also, are you aware that you and your wife's interactions at home are going to eventually become your children's FOO issues?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Lillie is obviously feeling very emotional toward CAC4 but as an outsider I just don't get it. There is something about CAC4's WORDS that connect with Lillie and make her think her BF and CAC4 are alike.
Maybe they are. Maybe they have the same personality type. Lillie and I have the same personality type. It makes sense to me that two 4/5 couples could have similar core R issues.
Also, are you aware that you and your wife's interactions at home are going to eventually become your children's FOO issues?
One thing I notice majorly lacking on the BB is the effect our strained marriages have on the kids. It's as if the marital relationship exists in its own vacuum. When I was in MC, not once did the therapist devote a significant part of the session discussing the impact on the kids. My individual counselor has child training and would bring up the kids all the time. I believe she's unusual in this regard.
Oh I didn't mean to say that they COULDN'T be either. Just that's it's difficult to say absolutely with the limited two dimensional interactions here.
It makes sense to me that two 4/5 couples could have similar core R issues.
Her BF is a type 7 not a 5. That might be the confusion.
Plus there can be similar relationship issues surrounding different personal issues, I think. Okay I am not so sure about that one but I think there is something useful in what I am TRYING to say.
Mrs.CAC4,
I have at least some (although Lillie argues that I am completely one!) Type 5 attributes. Obviously CAC4 and I don't look at things the same way but I still think I "get" him. At the same time, being a woman, I feel connected to you and supportive of you. You have such a great attitude and spirit that I would hate to see you get stumped by the issue on Sunday. I think you both are capable of figuring this out. Good Luck!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
