How can you be angry at fate? That’s like saying you are angry because the odds did not work out in your favor. Chance was not on your side. What is there to be so angry about, and to hold that anger for so long? Your explanation does not make sense. It seems like an excuse, a deflection.
look, you people are the one's telling me that I'm "angry". I never claimed to be; I'm just trying to play along. yeah, I wish things had turned out differently. I wish I had won the lottery last week, too, and that the '86 Sox had won the series. I'm never going to be happy about any of those things.
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Your response is particularly troubling because it means you have come to BELIEVE the little lies your parents have perpetuated on you. You believe their view of the world is the correct one, you believe that you do not deserve to feel your own wants, that if you do, those wants will not be met. That is a narcissistic family setting.
what lies?
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...And if you don’t know that, how will you ever learn your own feelings? [quote] Whenever I do recognize and express a "feeling", it comes back to bite me in the arse, big time. (as was the case here. Fear that something bad may have happened.) [quote] Yet life is scary and chaos is all around you. After all, your parents want you to be “more independent.” The best way to protect your self and survive is to control your environment the best way you can. For some that might mean acting out, turning to drugs, or becoming very analytical, cool and controlled. That’s how Mr. Spock is made.
I don't know why you keep sayin' that I'm the window into your BF's mind... I've got no rational explanation for it. I don't understand it, either.
I thought the same thing when I read her post to you!! I think she interprets your sarcasm and use of the word "bonehead" to think that you are just like her bf. The issue might be that you react to her like him; I doubt that you are LIKE him in behavior.
Not that you were worried but I just wanted to validate that I see nothing of you in Lillie's boyfriend's behavior. Not that there's anything wrong with him. (if you are watching as much TV as you say I hope you can place that reference!)
Anyway, Cobra means well, he is very well read and he does have great insight at times. I think the problem I have, and I suspect you too, is that at times he can go down a path so insistently that I feel if I disagree then suddenly I am deflecting, defensive, etc. (When did I stop beating my wife?) I am not defensive - I just think he missed the boat. I do want to know myself better so it feels doubly frustrating - he is going down the wrong path AND will not let us get back on track because he KNOWS he is right.
For my two cents on MrsCAC4, I think she has clearly stated that she is not feeling loved by you right now. I may be going out on a limb but I feel pretty certain that you do love her. Let her know that. Let her know that even when she uses the wrongs words and you get upset, you still love her. The words of affirmation can just be (I think) that you love her as she is. Even if you do get mad and yell, it does not change that you LOVE her. I think it can be confusing because you might worry that the reassurance that you love her means that she did not make a mistake. Yes, she made a mistake (and a big one) in her use of the words so what? Do you expect that she'll never make mistakes? You still love her, right? TELL HER.
I grew up on a dairy farm and the cry "the cows are out" is a stomach dropping cry that was commonly heard. Chasing cows and herding them back into the field is never a fun job. Tempers flare, cows don't behave, etc. One time I remember my mom crying that "Dad yelled at me" and worrying about why he yelled. I, at 14, explained that Dad was not really yelling AT her for messing up (although she had messed up). He was yelling because the cows were out and he was frustrated. Because she was so emotionally tied into the situation and was feeling hurt she could not see his issue and likewise for him (plus he had to get back to milking so there was no way for him to comfort her. In this case it really was that simple - mom messed up and dad yelled because he was frustrated and it was nothing deeper than that. There is no way to prevent the cows from getting out and there is no way to perfectly round up cows as far as I know (although the stacking container commercial was cute.) So the moral was this was just something they had to deal with when it happened and they did deal with it wonderfully and are still married after almost 39 years. Edit to add: In the future after dad yelled at mom, she did not IMMEDIATELY go to him for reassurance. He needed a brief time to cool off from the situation. After that (15-30 minutes??) she could go up to him and they would hug and laugh. So for MRSCAC4 I would ask if you could be willing to give him that space IF that's what CAC4 needs. Ask him.
Last edited by fearless; 03/28/0704:27 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Well...the WOA thing is actually news to me. She told me before that she was QT and AOS...and those are difficult for me due to circumstances beyond my control. (and thats a very frustrating position to be in). WOA certainly doesn't come naturally to me, as you might imagine from all the FOO talk. we're more of a "words of DEfamation" type family. but this seems like something that can be learned...and unlike some other LL's, this one shouldn't require any resources that are in short supply...time, energy, stamina...money! let me see...
look, you people are the one's telling me that I'm "angry".
Your anger was very apparent in your early posts. Your W is also saying you make sarcastic statements. Those statements do not come from happiness.
I never claimed to be; I'm just trying to play along.
I know you never claimed to be angry, just unhappy, maybe depressed, disappointed. That still sounds like repressed anger to me, especially considering what you’ve told us. Playing along is just hiding.
yeah, I wish things had turned out differently. I wish I had won the lottery last week, too, and that the '86 Sox had won the series. I'm never going to be happy about any of those things.
But do you make sarcastic statements to others and carry a negatively attitude that affects your M because you did not win the lottery?
what lies?
That’s exactly my point! (the lies are the justifications given you that being “more independent,” shutting down emotionally, dancing on eggshells to please your parents and gain their approval, and plenty more I’m sure. Why don’t you tell us about that?)
so...I should try drugs, instead?
How about get in touch with your emotions and your pain?
I stated earlier: ...And if you don’t know that, how will you ever learn your own feelings?
I think this was your reply to that statement, but it was embedded in the quote box:
Whenever I do recognize and express a "feeling", it comes back to bite me in the arse, big time. (as was the case here. Fear that something bad may have happened.)
Let’s go with this last statement of yours, hopefully to explain where I am coming from. Why do you think a statement about your feelings can come back to bite you in the arse, big time? What fear are you talking about, what “Fear that something bad may have happened.”
BTW, I want to make a distinction between what I am saying to you and what Corri said to the Mrs. Corri was telling your W that it is ok to feel what she feels. The same goes for you. But first you have to realize what you feel, and you are the one who says you don’t feel anything.
I would also ask the Lil, Corri, and others help out CAC on exploring his feeling, because I am not the best at doing this.
Fearless,
I, at 14, explained that Dad was not really yelling AT her for messing up (although she had messed up). He was yelling because the cows were out and he was frustrated. Because she was so emotionally tied into the situation and was feeling hurt she could not see his issue and likewise for him (plus he had to get back to milking so there was no way for him to comfort her.
This yelling by your dad was not good. Your justifying it and making excuses for his behavior was not good, even though you are technically right. It puts you in the position of playing arbitrator, a position WAAAY to powerful for a 14 year old. Just because your parents were able to work through this and come to an understanding does not mean that other couples can. Your dad was not being honest and was instead projecting his anger and frustration onto others to relieve himself. Do you see that?
I think the problem I have, and I suspect you too, is that at times he can go down a path so insistently that I feel if I disagree then suddenly I am deflecting, defensive, etc.
I had an interesting convo with my mother about needs and boundaries. When I was a child I needed to talk about my feelings. My mother WOH, had other priorities, and typically was engaged in some activity while I talked to her. The messages I got were 1)my need isn't valid, 2)my need is excessive, 3)it is annoying, 4)it is inconvenient for her to meet it, and 5)she had better things to do. I felt rejected. I felt unloved. It seemed that folding laundry was more important than talking to me. My retired grandmother lived a few doors away, and she was able to meet my need to talk. However, it wasn't a substitute for having the need met by my mother. I needed unconditional love from my mother. I needed to believe that I mattered to her.
My mother told me that I "hit" her with my need to talk as soon as she came home from work. She didn't want to talk then. She admitted that she thought I needed to talk "too much," and that she couldn't talk to me AND get all her own stuff done. She also expressed exasperation with me because I sat and talked and watched her clean or cook, and I never offered to help.
I then said, what if the issue had been handled like this: Child approaches mother to talk and mother says, "Honey, I can't talk right now." (establishing mother's boundary) Can we talk after dinner?" (Acknowledging the child's need) After dinner, if the mother is really pressed for time, she could say, "I can spend x minutes talking [meeting the child's need by giving her undivided attention to the child), and then I need to wash the dishes. (another boundary) Could you dry them and put them away?" (asks to have her own need met) Mother and child would have another opportunity to bond and chat.
My mother thought this would have been a good way to handle it. She also admitted that she probably avoided talking to me because my emotional personality made her uncomfortable, and she was afraid that she couldn't help me (meet my need) and she would feel like a fool (feel ashamed??)
This scenario has played out between H and me countless times, with me playing me, and H playing my mother. Neither of us could set boundaries or ask to have our needs met in a direct way.
This is what I plan (hope) to do going forward: 1. State my needs clearly 2. Set and enforce a boundary regarding the way H speaks to me (as Corri suggested). 3. Set other boundaries as necessary 4. "Act as if" -- continue to meet H's needs for PT even if I don't feel that my needs are being met.
I used to think I couldn't do #4, because I didn't think I could ML to H if I was unhappy due to unmet needs. But I see now that the boundaries eliminate the unproductive cycle that I wrote about at the beginning of this thread. Asserting myself in this way would eliminate the victim mentality I so often have. I think my victim mentality has been a major problem in my attitude toward sex.
I may be stating the obvious, but you did say you don't totally understand CAC's need for sex. Take your discussion with your mother, switch yourself for her, make CAC become you as a child, and change each occurrence of "talk" with "have sex." That might give you a good idea of what CAC has felt.
I don't have anything to add, but I just wanted to say that working your difficulties/problems/growth out here on the board helps me understand some of the things my relationship needs.
Familiar problems to many of us. Lennon and McCartney addressed this, too:
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Try to see it my way, Do I have to keep on talking till I can't go on? While you see it your way, Run the risk of knowing that our love may soon be gone. We can work it out, We can work it out.
Think of what you're saying. You can get it wrong and still you think that it's all right. Think of what I'm saying, We can work it out and get it straight, or say good night. We can work it out, We can work it out. Life is very short, and there's no time For fussing and fighting, my friend. I have always thought that it's a crime, So I will ask you once again.
Try to see it my way, Only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong. While you see it your way There's a chance that we might fall apart before too long. We can work it out, We can work it out. Life is very short, and there's no time For fussing and fighting, my friend. I have always thought that it's a crime, So I will ask you once again.
Try to see it my way, Only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong. While you see it your way There's a chance that we may fall apart before too long. We can work it out, We can work it out.
Trite? Overused? Cliche? It still resonates with me.
Your dad was not being honest and was instead projecting his anger and frustration onto others to relieve himself. Do you see that?
Listen, unless you are a farmer and a dairy farmer specifically, you have NO idea how frustrating animals can be just by themselves and especially in the context of sinking deeper and deeper into debt and losing your life's dream. Did my dad yell out of projection? Yeah he yelled at me and my brothers too but it was NEVER excessive (a couple of times a year) and it was always obvious. I really do not think you are intending to ask that my dad be PERFECT. He was usually under control but yes he could lose it at times. He was HUMAN. Just like my mom.
I was never an arbitrator. I was there for my mom to talk to. Did she talk to me too much about her personal issues? Probably but I have long since forgiven her for not being a perfect mom. She did the very best she could and I admire her for all the good things she has done. In fact I just told her that very thing this past weekend. I have written about how good she was about standing up for my brother while still disciplining him.
Personally I look at their marriage for all its flaws and their flaws and I am in AWE. They were PARTNERS in the truest sense of the word. They openly adored each other and respected each other. I will tell you something I can only hope to have a man love me like my father, despite his flaws, loves my mom. My mom was not an easy woman in some ways.
After my friend's husband left her (her parents are dairy farmers too and her mom can be "difficult" also - trust me in the 4-H dairy barn they BOTH had quite a reputation) my dad and I were talking and I carefully broached the subject of their marriage. I made a comment about how my XH and my friend's XH would have struggled even more if they had had to deal with my mom or my friend's mom (alluding to how difficult they could be). My dad gave me a LOOK and quietly said "Your mom and I did all right." I LOVE that my dad controlled the situation that way. No talk about how difficult my mom was, how hard he worked to make the marriage work, blah blah blah. Nope pretty much a quiet "Shut your mouth and do not EVER suggest anything negative about your mom."
Do I want the EXACT marriage my parents had? Of course not. But I know enough to respect their marriage.
Last edited by fearless; 03/28/0706:55 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Hmmm...Maybe I do understand it. I was going to say that I've never felt unloved because H wouldn't have sex with me. But I don't know if that's true. There have been occasions when I was interested, didn't state my need, and H didn't pick up on my interest. I felt hurt and rejected then and... unloved. (I do take full responsibility for not having my needs met because I didn't state my need clearly. And ML was my need. ) Anyway, it sure didn't feel good. Had this happened on a regular basis, I'm sure I would have started feeling unloved much like a person with the PT LL.
But back to your point, yes, I can definitely see how he felt.
I think the more our needs are NOT met, the more focused we become in having them met, to the point that others may perceive us as "needy." I think that goes for men and women.
but this seems like something that can be learned...and unlike some other LL's, this one shouldn't require any resources that are in short supply...time, energy, stamina...money! 
)
) Anyway, it sure didn't feel good. Had this happened on a regular basis, I'm sure I would have started feeling unloved much like a person with the PT LL.