OK, because H has posted a reply to fearless & cobra, I'm taking that as a green light to post a few more thoughts. I admit that sometimes it isn't easy having this "public" dialog, but I can take it.
Now is the time for a boundary... not justifying your position. So do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem?
That's just it--how do I set a boundary about this? What would you do? I have very little practice with boundaries and lots of practice convincing myself I don't deserve anything, therefore not setting them. I do want to solve the problem, else I wouldn't have come on here in the first place. And it's not that I want to be "right." I don't think that's my issue. I just don't want to feel like I'm "wrong" all the time. Anyone who can give me advice on setting boundaries, please do.
You obviously have your own finances, and issues pertaining to them. Solve the problem.
The finances aren't the problem. And when I was backing up my files on the zip disks there was no problem. It really comes down to a differing opinion on how to back up the files. H has a point about the added safety of backing them up at another location in case of a fire at home. Yet, hairdog says it's not a good idea to have our personal files on the company network. H, I'm sure, would think this isn't a problem either. So is this where I set the boundary? Do I do what I want here, even if it's not the best method?
Don't blame Cac for not responding to you in a way you would prefer. Set a boundary. If he wants to be blah, blah, blah, he gets to do that (good decision or bad). That doesn't mean you have to tolerate someone's disrespect. But you cannot control it.
Again, I don't know how to do this. I thought I was being disrespected so I was attempting to "not tolerate" it. I don't think I succeeded. I think the opinions here are mixed. How does H say what he wants however he wants and I set my boundary at the same time? I honestly have no clue. What would you (or anyone else) do?
Your emotions are your own. And while understandable (at least to me), they don't really 'help' you in solving problems. They just help you justify a position (right, wrong or indifferent).
I'm confused on this point too. Some people here are trying to get their Ws to understand the pain that they feel when they are rejected sexually. It's not about sex; it's about how the HDs FEEL when they can't ML to their Ws -- unloved. I do understand the pain that H was feeling because he felt unloved. That's one reason why I have resolved to do what I can to improve the SL. The only problem is, I don't think H "gets" the reasons that I feel unloved. And I can't help but think that sex sometimes gets put on a higher pedestal than other LLs. It seems that way to me sometimes.
This is the reason (well one anyway) that I started this thread. I am now feeling unloved just as H was when he wasn't getting much sex, because I still don't think he gets it. Yet, when I tried to explain what I was feeling (I didn't use the word "unloved" because it wasn't on the NVC list) I believe I was dismissed by several people, including H. I am CHANGING my behavior to try to improve the SL, is it wrong for me to expect him to change his?
I came to understand that I wasn't open to H's idea of love (sex) so I decided I should start being open to it. Even if it doesn't quite make sense to me, I should just accept that this is how he feels loved and try to love him that way. And I have been.
H knows that my LLs are quality time and words of affirmation. But where are the words of affirmation? I don't find sarcasm to be affirming. I have said many times how hurtful sarcasm is TO ME, yet, H still continues to use it. H pointed out to me some time ago that men are frequently bashed in today's feminist society, for example, being portrayed as hapless, childish buffoons on sitcoms. Everyone Loves Raymond is an example. He has opened my eyes to this trend and I have noted that this upsets him. After a while, I came to see that he had a valid point. On the few opportunities that he has pointed out things like this that upset him, I have tried (not always successfully) to respect this and see his POV and change my behavior if possible. I'm only asking for the same courtesy from him. This is what I wanted on Sunday. I still don't think I've gotten it. Does this make me want to be right? I don't believe it does. It makes me want to be EQUAL, to receive the same respect and courtesies that I've been trying to show to him. I thought that telling him how I felt was the way to go about it.
Quote: --------------------------------------------------- And I can't help but think that sex sometimes gets put on a higher pedestal than other LLs. It seems that way to me sometimes. ---------------------------------------------------
That's because sex is the only "need" that can only be met in its entirety inside of a monogamous relationship.
You can get other needs at least partially met via other venues.
Don't make the mistake of trying to assess blame in the relationship. You be 100% responsible for your half of the relationship. That includes having sex with hubby. Hubby needs to be 100% responsible for his half of the relationship. That includes treating you with respect.
MrsNOP and I have been where you two are. For now, I think it would be very wise if the two of you would set aside any idea of "fair". You won't find the solution to your problem by assessing blame.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Mrs CAC4: And I can't help but think that sex sometimes gets put on a higher pedestal than other LLs. It seems that way to me sometimes.
NOPkins: That's because sex is the only "need" that can only be met in its entirety inside of a monogamous relationship.
You can get other needs at least partially met via other venues.
I just wrote about this very subject this afternoon on Karen's thread.
I do not feel like the LL concept has been fully understood if someone believes that the LL need can be met outside the relationship and still solidify the relationship. Remember a LL is how a spouse knows/understands/FEELS that their spouse loves them. How does getting their LL met by someone else help them to know their spouse loves them? I had plenty of people willing to spend QT with me but that never made me feel like my XH loved me.
Here's what I wrote to Karen: Karen,
Aren't you pointing out why it is called a LL? When I asked my XH for QT because I NEEDED it, he would point to our SL (which is a close second in my LL) and his appreciation of me to show that he loved me. I appreciate and love those things but QT is how I KNOW I am loved and without it I feel adrift. He refused to acknowledge that need as legitimate (well to be fair he had other issues of his own that were emerging in unhealthy ways)
So does your H understand that although you meet his LL needs that your LL is not met? Does he understand the physical touch LL includes more than just sex?
The trick about the LL is that ALL of them are truly needed in a good relationship. I thought the GENIUS of the book and idea is that although they are all needed and appreciated there is usually ONE that is THE thing that gives someone that feeling of LOVE versus love. At least that's what I took from it. And when you can recognize AND respect each other's LL WITHOUT judgment, then the relationship can bloom.
I also thought it helped explain why a relationship feels so good initially, in addition to all the other obvious things. At the beginning of a relationship there is usually extra attention to all 5 LLs. As the relationship cools, as it must, people drift into paying attention to the 1 or 2 LL they are comfortable with which is great if a couple has the same LL but much more difficult if there LL are different.
Just my take on it.
Last edited by fearless; 03/28/0712:30 AM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Quote: ------------------------------------------------- I do not feel like the LL concept has been fully understood if someone believes that the LL need can be met outside the relationship and still solidify the relationship. -------------------------------------------------
I believe that Chapman even lists examples of needs being partially met outside of the relationship, but it has been a good while since I read his book. I know that Harley does site exceptions.
You have to account for practicality. I have recreational needs that I don't expect my wife to share with me, such as flying upside down.
If I am a mother, I can get SOME of my need for touch from my children. In a monogamous relationship, I can't (shouldn't) get my need for sex from a prostitute.
I like the "Love Languages" concept, but it begins to fall apart once a departure from practicality occurs.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Fearless: I do not feel like the LL concept has been fully understood if someone believes that the LL need can be met outside the relationship and still solidify the relationship.
NOPkins: I believe that Chapman even lists examples of needs being partially met outside of the relationship, but it has been a good while since I read his book. I know that Harley does site exceptions.
I understand the confusion. The LL concept is about RELATIONSHIP needs. These LL are how people in a relationship express and feel love for each other.
The LL concept is not about the personal needs that someone has for their own fulfillment, self-esteem, integrity, etc. Those needs need to be met internal by the person and obviously can include outside involvement.
I absolutely do not want a relationship that is so exclusive that there is not room for anyone or anything else. What if I love reading and want to join a book club to meet that need and my SO isn't interested? No problem. The same if he wants to lift weights and hang out at the gym occasionally. Those are different needs than relationship needs.
The point again is that this LL concept that Chapman wrote about IS exclusively about a couple. I would stress that all 5LLs are equal in how a person feels them from their partner. The way I look at it is the LL is how I can FEEL that my partner loves me. And in reverse I think the LL is even easier to define. It is the one that leaves you empty inside and feeling confused about your spouses feeling toward you. For example, my XH occasionally bought gifts for me that I appreciated but when he didn't buy gifts for Christmas or birthdays I never felt anything was missing. The same with acts of service. Words of affirmation were more noticeable with Physical touch even closer to the top but Quality Time was the one LL that when withdrawn sent me into a spiral of confusion about my XH's feelings toward me. It PHYSICALLY hurt to not know how to KNOW that he loved me.
I hope that better explains why I and I assume MrsCAC4 feel so strongly that all LLs are equal.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
That's just it--how do I set a boundary about this? What would you do? I have very little practice with boundaries and lots of practice convincing myself I don't deserve anything, therefore not setting them. I do want to solve the problem, else I wouldn't have come on here in the first place. And it's not that I want to be "right." I don't think that's my issue. I just don't want to feel like I'm "wrong" all the time. Anyone who can give me advice on setting boundaries, please do.
I don't believe there is any right or wrong, just effective and not-so-effective. You have two issues here, that I see.
1) How to back up your files
2) The manner in which Cac was treating you.
The first issue got muddled with your 'feelings,' because he was speaking to you in a certain way, you were 'feeling' unsure of yourself on how to do what you needed to do with your files... he handled the situation in what you considered a hurtful way...
Seperate the issue from your feelings. Issue. How am i going to back up MY files? Do it YOUR way. However that way may be.
Let the feelings associated with the issue settle. Feel them. Write them down. Put it aside. Give it a day or two. When you are calm, look at what you have written. If you are filled with a bunch of negative emotions... look at the cause.
The 'cause,' was how CAC was speaking to you, and how this sensitive area of you was reacting to it. Now we are onto issue two.
Setting a boundary.
Mrs. Cac: "H, I appreciate your thoughts and opinions on this subject. I am willing to talk through this with you, but I will not be belittled and disrespected in the proces."
If he chooses to continue in that vein, you leave the room. You end the conversation. You continue about your business of solving your problem (which you are entirely capable of doing on your own, whether he thinks its the best way to do it or not). You learn to self-soothe your hurt feelings. Hopefully Cac can be empathetic to your feelings. "I'm sorry you are feeling x, y, z. How about a hug?" If not, you continue about your business.
You cannot change Cac. You can only set boundaries.
To say to him, "I'm doing all of this for you, the least you can do for me is x, y, z!!" is manipulative. That is a bartering arrangement. Fix your sex life for yourself, if you want, because you have decided you are a good person with empathetic understanding, this is what YOU want... not because you need something from him in return.
If Cac can't or won't get to that place, and this is a non-negotiable boundary for you... then you will be in the position of defending that boundary. You have to determine when the boundary is violated, and you also have to determine what you are going to DO about it when it is... no one can decide that for you... and that is why boundaries are so gd, mfing HARD.
You don't feel loved because you don't feel respected. But in order to BE respected by another, you must first respect yourself. And you have plenty of reasons to do that, whether CAC approves or not. You are a bright, intelligent woman. You have the means and the wherewithall to live your life as you see fit because of WHO YOU ARE (and you have to decide who that is, btw).
So when I say to you... Cac gets to act and respond any way he wants, I mean it. But that doesn't mean you have to tolerate it. THIS is where a boundary comes into play. It is not about 'controlling' another. It is about your own integrity, and what you will and will not tolerate.
I think the reason boundaries are so tough is because they are so flippin' simple. Seriously. Go read my post on HD's thread about my intereaction with my bf. It was a good deal like what you just went through, and I was HURT, and DRAMATIC, and there were TEARS involved... and a friend of mine did exactly what I am doing to you...
Yes, Mrs. Cac, believe me, I swear, I have been in your shoes, you have a RIGHT to feel exactly as you do. I understand it even. Don't blame you one iota. But those feelings are YOURS, and they are not helping to solve or address the underlying issues. "But I am FEELING THIS!!!" Of course you are. You aren't crazy. You get to feel them and throw tantrums if you want. Cry, stamp your foot. But that doesn't solve your problem. See?
There are few things on this planet that I can think of that have to be solved RIGHT NOW. You may want to feel better RIGHT NOW... but problems, by and large, will sit there and wait for you.
With the sex thing, the issue is this: lack of sex is causing your H pain (for more reasons than just getting off). You 'get it,' even if you don't really understand it. Fine. You are stepping up to the plate because you can see your part in it. GOOD FOR YOU. Really. That is very good. You are on your way to understanding boundaries. You want to save your marriage. That is non-negotiable to you. Now you are exploring YOURSELF in order to do that FOR YOU.
Cac can be very belittling to you. Draw a boundary. Just because you 'draw' the boundary doesn't mean he is going to 'get it,' over night. He has unconscious habits to overcome, just like you do. The way you help him with that is to be crystal clear on the boundary, and nail him on it every single time it gets violated. Doesn't mean you have to be mean about it. It just means you stay consistent with it. He either will or won't get it. YOU get to decide the time frame (doesn't that suck?)
See where I am going with this?
Corri
P.S. And if I'm going to make a guess, I'd say you are feeling pretty frustrated right now... I KNOW the feeling.
I'm not asking for a review of what I said to him. I did okay and he didn't get mad at me. I just want an explanation of why he didn't put them in the refrigerator so as to extend their shelf-life and buy more time to GET them to the post office. He often sabotages himself this way. He buys plants and lets them die before he gets them in the ground-- he does this A LOT. Even though the garden is at my house, I've stopped paying for the plants. He does this with lots of stuff. We throw away tons of food at his house.
Because he isn't you. And if he wants to sabotage himself, he gets to do that. And by the 10th time he buys his daughter tortillas and they've molded, he'll either learn or he won't. His daughter will get fed up with moldy packages and ask her dad to stop, or she won't.
Quote: --------------------------------------------- The point again is that this LL concept that Chapman wrote about IS exclusively about a couple. ---------------------------------------------
I understood the point.
My point is that the "LL concept" used by a number of "experts", is flawed.
Let me ask you a rhetorical question: You are in a room with a screaming baby and a basket of clothes that need folding. What do you do first? Which is the greatest and most immediate need?
I will likely start a flame war here, but my position is and has been that all needs are NOT created equal, BUT the overall needs of an individual inside a relationship is equal to their partner's needs.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
My point is that the "LL concept" used by a number of "experts", is flawed.
I would argue that the concept is NOT flawed rather it is the understanding and application of the concept that is usually flawed. Edit to add: I should make it clear that I don't see it as a complete solution to any relationship issue. I guess I thought that was clear but realized it might now have been.
Let me ask you a rhetorical question: You are in a room with a screaming baby and a basket of clothes that need folding. What do you do first? Which is the greatest and most immediate need?
First I am not a mother but I have babysat and have friends with babies. This is not as "easy" as it appears. If the baby has been fed and changed and is just crying, then I and mothers I know would fold the clothes. On the other hand if the baby had just woken up crying, the clothes would wait while the baby was checked. It's context and balance. That's how I view the relationship and personal needs; they have to be balanced and it is up to each individual to take care of their own personal needs, understand and meet their partners needs in a way that does not sacrifice their needs and to communicate their relationship needs to their partner.
I will likely start a flame war here, but my position is and has been that all needs are NOT created equal, BUT the overall needs of an individual inside a relationship is equal to their partner's needs.
In this case I am only talking about the LL needs in regards to a relationship. I believe those needs are equal. I also firmly believe that individual and relationship needs ARE equal. If an individual is not healthy the relationship has no possibility of being healthy, so we are in total agreement that an individual must meet their own needs.
My issue is when individual and relationship needs are viewed as mutually exclusive. I think that is rarely the case in relationships unless someone is in a powerplay either because they feel powerless or because they want to feel powerful.
Edited to add:
By the way I hope this is somewhat good distraction away from the kidney stone!! Seriously I hope you are doing OK with it.
Last edited by fearless; 03/28/0701:49 AM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
