Tortoise or the Hare

[chromosphere]

Thread locked, for the first time in awhile. I'll start with responses from the old thread

Mrs.cac3

I can relate to most of what you wrote about your W, so I thought I'd pass along my thoughts and experience as an LD woman....don't know if this is helpful at all.

It is helpful, thank you very much.

For the last year or so I noticed I've been "in the mood" once or twice a month. This is a hormonal-driven desire to ML regardless of what's been happening between H and me. It required no disengaging my thoughts, or getting in the mood or whatever. I simply was feeling horny. When we would ML during these times I would also O pretty quickly. For me, these Os were pretty intense and I really liked the feeling.

This is very similar to what my W describes, except that for her she claims it is one every couple of months. Your phrase "disengaging my thoughts" is interesting to me. One complaint my W makes is that she can't get into it because she has so many other things on her mind all the time. I have asked her about "letting go", but she says that she can't do it.

Then after finishing ML I would feel satisfied like Honeypot described a while back, but would not be thinking about when we would do it again. If H and I attempted to ML say the next day or 2 days later I would not feel the same desire, it would take longer to O, I would need to start disengaging my thoughts, in essence I would need to feel desire to ML with my H, and for me, that took some effort. (I wrote about this yesterday on Cemar's thread.)

I think you have made a crucial step, in that you consciously choose to disengage your thoughts, make the effort, etc. Right now my W is unwilling to make that effort. That is one of our major hurdles right now.

Because my once or twice a month sessions were so EASY and I could just ride the hormonal ride, I preferred to ML only then, and "supplement" H with other things as you described. I felt that during my horny times, I could truly give my H what he wanted. What I came to realize was that when I ML because of hormones, I was not in a vulnerable, emotional state, so it was "safe" in a way. I didn't worry about disappointing my H, I had no "performance anxiety" (yes women can have that too), maybe I knew I wouldn't disappoint myself either. I felt protected by the hormone rush. Maybe I also felt I couldn't compete with myself when I wasn't feeling the hormones. The hormone-induced ML set the bar really high and I was afraid I couldn't pull that off all the time.

This is interesting, and I can see parallels in my W's behavior. I think my C's advice to accept my W's offers to "help me" might offer a solution in that it could over time reduce her anxiety. The hope is that at some point in the future she will let go during one of those sessions and allow herself to enjoy the experience, and then over time feel more comfortable letting go more and more. What I struggle with is I don't want to create the impression in her mind that I only want physical release. If most of our sexual encounters are "helping me", I could see her gaining that mindset (well she already sort of has that mindset, despite my protests).

Then a few months ago, I decided that I WANTED to ML more often, that I was actually missing out, that maybe I COULD have that once or twice a month feeling more often. I starting seeing ML as something not just for H, but for me too. That's really the key. I just made a choice.

That is the key, and I think your life will be much better now that you have made that choice.

One thing that's been really helpful is TALKING to H about my concerns, fears, etc. regarding ML, and ASKING him what he truly wants. We're communicating about it, something we never really did before.

My W and I are not there yet. I do try to initiate conversations about the topic, but she replies "I don't know, I'm too tired to think about it" to any questions about wants/fears.

I didn't magically start feeling desire all the time, although I feel it more than I used to. I ALLOW myself to feel it. I still struggle with letting go. I know it will take practice. I'm trying to undo many years of conditioning. But I CHOOSE to ML more often because I want to. It's now something I do for myself too. I ALLOW myself to love my H by ML and I ALLOW him to love me the same way.

I think your attitude is wonderful, and I hope your H recognizes it as such.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Fearless

So back to what is your goal? I feel like a lot of people here have interconnected goals. That is important to me because while they are connected; the goals can also stand alone too. If you focus completely on one goal, then you may lose opportunities for all goals or even damage the ability to get both. At the same time, IF you focus on all at the exact same time, you risk not getting everything and not getting the ball rolling in the right direction.

This is a problem for me. My W and I have many issues: past infidelity, sexual repression, young children, enmeshed parents, lack of communication, conflict avoidance, etc. Focusing on one will not solve our M problems, but focusing on all at once is overwhelming.

In this case I think you want sex AND you want ACTUAL sex AND you want to feel desired. An obvious question for me is while I know you PREFER actual sex, if your wife is willing to perform BJ and HJs for you isn't this actually heading the RIGHT direction? It does show a desire to please you AND it certainly opens the door for occasionally at least the BJ or HJ to really become outright sex. If you looked at it that way, would you be happier with it? Could you relax a little and appreciate your wife more for trying?

My C said basically the same thing (maybe you have a future in C'ing). I see the logic in what you say. But what do you think about the possibility that her giving me HJ and BJ on a regular basis will cement in her mind that I'm not really into it for the mutualism, I'm only in it to satisfy my needs?

For example, back to the house cleaning, if I want my partner to do more around the house, what if he puts the dishes away one day? Do I mope and complain because he did not sweep the kitchen, clean the toilet AND fold clothes also? For me, no. I just say "hey thanks for putting the dishes away." Sure I may want more than just the dishes but remember the dishes are a STEP in the RIGHT direction. Would being critical about not getting everything I want help in my goal of getting more help with the house? I would certainly think not. I would think the H in this case would feel rejected for his help, feel like nothing is good enough for me, and would probably not be motivated to put the dishes away tomorrow. Of course if he is at a place in his own being where he is secure enough to handle the heat it will not be a problem, but I think we are talking about insecurity in these examples.

Yes, insecurity is a major problem for both my W and I. We are negotiating new territory here. We did not have a marriage that was passionate at first and waned over time, it has never been passionate. Again, I see the logic in what you say. Let me pose the following within this analogy though. What if what you wanted was for your H to help out around the house more than just washing the dishes. You accept washing the dishes for now, validate him for the effort, and hope that he decides on his own to do more. But after a few years, he is still just washing the dishes. What then?

Why wouldn't the same be true for sex? If you can relax and let whatever "tidbit" you get, be appreciated for a step in a positive direction, it MIGHT open the door for good feelings and even a tiny bit more. I am NOT saying to be overly appreciative which can look obvious, fake and even condescending.

I understand this, and have made the mistake of being overly appreciative in the past. I realize that doing so can not only appear fake (especially if your S knows you want more), but also does not allow your S to earn your regard.

Yeah, yeah I know. I have a very high threshold for pain and patience so I realize this may not be as easy for others. I was soooo frustrated with a friend of mine recently. She commented to me, after months of complaining to me, that her H had finally started getting their son ready for daycare in the morning and how much that helped her. He had done it for a full week without her asking. So I said, "wow. Have you thanked him?"(I was more wondering HOW she thanked him because I assumed she had) her reply "no. He should be doing it and I need a lot more help around here." Wow that seemed short sighted to me and very counter productive to the end result. I mean sure, in theory, she is right. He is the father and should be helping but come on!! A little appreciation is nice isn't it? (she happens to like sex and probably wants sex a tiny bit more than him so that is not an issue for them.)

You don't have to worry that I won't be appreciative of any efforts my W makes. That appreciation may be covered in my desire for more though. I can say though (and I am not trying to bash my W here), that my W has difficulty with validation.

As always just trying to look at a situation from a different light. Take whatever advice, if any, is useful to you.

I certainly appreciate your time.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

MJ

This seems very odd to me. If I was aroused enough to orgasm after 1.5 seconds of manual it would probably be a great orgasm. When she's "cuddling" with you is she doing things like rubbing up against you? Is she verbally reporting to you that the orgasm is "weak" because it comes too quickly? Also, if I was aroused enough to be 1.5 seconds away from orgasming before the interactive action even begins, I wouldn't choose to be manually stimulated. To be frank, my natural instinct would be to put my *ss in the air. Is she indicating that this is what she wants (manual as opposed to sex)?

She rubs up against me a little bit, but mostly is fairly passive about receiving my attention. She doesn't say anything about her O being weak, but there have been a few times that she has had an obvious strong O so I can (I think) tell the difference. She does not want to do it doggie style, because of size issues. Any penetration we have tried other than "normal" has been painful to her. Granted, we hadn't been using astroglide in the past. But I think her attitude of "its so easy for me to O, why would I want to try anything new" will probably crop up if I mention doggie style.

Chrome

[fearless]

But what do you think about the possibility that her giving me HJ and BJ on a regular basis will cement in her mind that I'm not really into it for the mutualism, I'm only in it to satisfy my needs?

Yes, I can understand that concern. The key would be that it would be clear that it was something you and your wife are doing together even if it is a BJ or HJ. I would make it clear that since your wife is not up for making love that you consider (and I hope you really do) that the BJ or HJ can still be a bonding experience between the two of you. That it is MORE than just pleasuring you; it is a connection between you and your wife. You can also work to make it clear that it is the fact that SHE is doing this for you that is the real turn-on for you.

Just my thoughts.


Fearless, in full work avoidance mode (with apologies to HDog)

[chromosphere]

GEL

IMPO...she has to let go enough to actually experience it. However I did describe a method quite some time back that works really well for me, it involves using your fingers on her g-spot inside (that little spot that kind of feels like a walnut shell) on the wall of her vagina. She may not be particularly comfortable with that either...I remember the 1st time I experienced an "O" this way I thought I was going to pee, then once I actually had it....I realized what it was. She's likely to try to get you to stop though if she thinks she's going to pee the bed. There definitely was a wet spot on the bed, but I can confidently say...I didn't pee the bed LOL (that's an indicator too that she had a good one.)

Last year I tried the G-spot stimulation for the first time, and it did seem to work really well. Her most powerful O (based on the loudness of her moaning and the amount of body motion) came on her second O of the night, when I "played a quartet" on her (thumb on clit, fingers of same hand on G-spot, lips/tongue on nipple, other fingers on other nipple). The problem I am having now is that long before my fingers could get near the G-spot, she O's (or maybe has the button shock thing, I'm willing to consider the possibility she is not O'ing). I can say that if there is a "have to pee" feeling or any sort of major discharge, she will probably have issues with it. But you don't really know until it happens. I can hope that if she does have that sort of O, it will turn a switch on inside her.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

MJ

Chrome- You might get a better answer about how to tell the difference from some of the more experienced men on the BB. Some signs of true orgasm to look for are sudden flush to the skin around the chest, rhythmic muscular contractions of the vagina (as opposed to a muscular clamping), with direct clitoral stimulation the clitoris will retract strongly just before orgasm (this probably happens with vaginal orgasm also but it's never been as obvious to me so I can't say for sure). Other stuff too but nothing else a guy could necessarily see. Any sort of sounds/verbalization or spasming of the body would not be a sure sign although they do frequently occur.

I have only managed to ML a few times when it was not at night in the bedroom with the lights off, so I usually would not be able to tell about the flush in the chest thing. I'll look for it if I get the opportunity. I have felt rhythmic muscle contractions. I will try to feel for the retraction of the clit next time. Thanks.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

NOPkins

You should consider printing out a nice short article on female orgasms and give it to your wife.

You should consider the possibility that she knows full well what an orgasm is and is blowing you off by faking it.

Next time you are with her, avoid direct contact with her clitoris. Many women find direct contact, at least initially, uncomfortable. Try manipulating the area immediately surrounding the clitoris, and to a lesser degree, the clitoral hood. Gentle broad stimulation rather than pinpoint is also a good approach. Go read some articles on stimulating your partner.

The real rub is that there is no absolute method for a man to determine if a woman has an orgasm. That part you will have to work out as a trust issue with your wife.

If anyone has a link to an article that seems to describe female O's well, please pass it on. I'll be looking in the meantime.

I grant the possibility that my W is faking it, but I am doubtful. I think it is more possible that she has never had an O and doesn't know what one feels like. She told me once that she can only recall having an O one time before she met me, and that was when her boyfriend at the time was laying on top of her kissing her.

I will try to be more indirect in my approach in the future to attempt to prolong the experience. I'll admit that my techniques do tend toward "pinpoint" rather than broad. Thanks for the tip.

I trust that my W is not faking it, until I receive unambiguous evidence to the contrary.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

All,

On another thread, NOPkins wrote that there are others here with far worse issues than me. Although I don't know what everyone's issues are in detail, I do know of at least a few others here that would make me agree with this statement. Although I was seriously physically and emotionally abused on a regular basis, I was only hospitalized once from the physical abuse, and was never sexually abused, which IMHO is the worst kind of abuse. And I do know of several people IRL that had physical abuse that makes mine pale in comparison (my mother for example). I will say my heart does really go out to all those who did experience worse childhood's than me. I cannot imagine how you made it.

That being said and getting to the point I wanted to make, Cobra (who initiated that response from NOPkins), I am still interested in having a FOO convo with you, just to see if anything useful is dredged up. We have kinda stopped and started a few times, but never really had a direct convo about it. I'm not looking for excuses for my past bad behavior, just understanding to help me make my future better. In addition Cobra, while I certainly appreciate your positive remarks, I am still struggling mightily with the self-esteem thing. The problem with my self-esteem repair is that I can go for fairly long periods of time feeling good about myself, but I still fall way too far down at times. So the overall average is much higher, but I have too many deep pits. And this adversely affects my marriage. I can see clearly how my W having trust that I am strong person is essential to her willingness to be vulnerable and intimate with me. But I have never been good at hiding the pits. Even going to see a C is an issue. I hadn't been going for awhile, and she mentioned it in a way that she felt very positive about it (which is understandable). But I felt I needed to go a couple of times recently, and when I told her I was going, I could see the negative reaction it had on her. So I am still very much a work in progress.

Chrome

[cemar2]

fearless:

How does one ever get to the point where the can emotionally seperate from the physical acts of affection and sex? It just seems to mechanical and NOT an emotional connection. If I ask my wife to do something simple, like grab my butt once in a while. From that point on it always feels like they have to force themselve to do these things, like they are patronizing. The thing about meeting needs is that it is necessary for BOTH partners to show enthusisim for it, not like OK, I check that off my list of things that had to be done today. I don't care if it is sex, or quality time, or whatever, if your partner is not enthusiasitc to do that activity, it always seems patronizing.

[mrsc]

I'm sure the patronizing feeling goes BOTH ways.