But I'm not going to just swallow it anymore. I'm pushing back.
Which is exactly the right thing to do.
I'd be very wary, though, about having your battles in public. Nobody drops their defenses when they feel ganged up on. This would have been a good email?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Perhaps you're right. I don't know. I'm stepping so far out of my comfort zone I can't see it objectively. All I know is that I have lived in fear of truly speaking my mind, and now I'm finding the confidence to do it. Maybe there is a better way.
I'm feeling terribly frustrated. I've been shut out for so long that it is literally driving me crazy.
Maybe I feel it's my turn to do it publicly. Maybe I haven't quite gotten over the hurt I felt when I read H's comments (before I was posting). Some of the things he wrote hurt me very deeply. Some of these topics are extremely sensitive to me, like my pregnancy. It wasn't just that he said them; it was the way he said them, with sarcastic and cutting words. And the fact that he said them on the internet and I couldn't defend myself at all just added to it.
First, I can empathize with both of you. Like cac, I often feel as if I'm expected to read my W's mind. Like cac, I came on this site to unload and have used a lot of unkind words to describe my W. Like mrs.cac, I often feel like my spouse thinks I'm some sort of bonehead, I feel like a bonehead when she talks to me in certain ways, and yeah, I'm pushing back, too.
I don't know if you guys are going to solve anything (except problems in other folks' relationships) by cross posting on here. But if the postings can lead to some conversations between the two of you, go for it. It is, I suppose, a tool in the arsenal of couples communication. You both have valid points. Both of you need to approach each other with a loving, caring, respectful attitude.
One note: you MUST stop backing up files onto a company network. If you don't own the company, I'm sure that the owners don't want you doing this. If you do own the company, you're opening yourself up to some fun battles if the company ever goes bankrupt, and someone wants to go after your personal assets.
Look on lifehacker.com under online file backup or just get a usb external drive. Lots of options, some are even free.
Up until a few days ago, Cac was writing about HIS feelings, and venting. Though you may feel 'exposed,' and unable to defend yourself, no one knows either one of you. Most people on this board know there is a whole other side of the story that is not getting told. That is typically why this isn't just a b!tch board... if someone really gets to grinding on their spouse, most people here don't let that person get away with it.
I understand your frustration in this matter, and I know you are not feeling heard. Sarcasm can really hurt.
But guess what, honey? Now is the time for a boundary... not justifying your position. So do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem?
When I was married, my H was an accountant. All things related to money and investing, I pretty much left to him, since that was his area. He'd try to explain things to me... but a lot of it didn't stick in my head (though far more of it has than I ever once thought). I didn't remember things because I didn't HAVE to... not out of disresepct for him.
However, when I began my own business, we often would squabble over how I decided to do my accounting, and some business decisions I was making. So I stopped talking to him about it, and I hired my own accountant. The emmotional distance necessary to create an effective business relationship was not possible with him. I didn't do it out of spite, or because I thought his intelligence was lacking, but because it wasn't helping either one of us. Period.
You obviously have your own finances, and issues pertaining to them. Solve the problem.
Don't blame Cac for not responding to you in a way you would prefer. Set a boundary. If he wants to be blah, blah, blah, he gets to do that (good decision or bad). That doesn't mean you have to tolerate someone's disrespect. But you cannot control it.
Your emotions are your own. And while understandable (at least to me), they don't really 'help' you in solving problems. They just help you justify a position (right, wrong or indifferent).
Hi MrsCac Just catching up on your thread. Your frustration is not surprising or at all uncommon. I think there are some problems with both of you and Cac airing the public grievances with this motley crew on the board. And I say that not because there isn't wonderful insight to be had, but because sometimes too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the meal, kwim? You and Cac need to come to some level of understanding and sense of loyalty/togetherness/team spirit, for lack of a better words, before the board will be positive rather than negative. I think when you are at odds with your spouse, this board can fuel the flames, maybe cause more fights, more over-analysis. But when you are in a more stable place, it can be very enlightening. Sort of like the Nops and how they approach the board as a couple. It works for them. I often wonder if my H came on here if it would just stir up more trouble for us than we really need to get into. Don't add gas to the fire. But with all that said, I support most of your viewpoints and totally understand wanting to get this out and process it on the board. It does help. Maybe you need to weigh the importance of speaking your mind for YOU right now and working on the R/M with Cac in a more efffective manner. But that is not for any of us to judge. Just throwing out my take as something to think about I guess. LFL
It is interesting how different people can see different situations depending on their perspective. Cobra's comments to Lillie about her boyfriend not shutting the window were very interesting to me. This is what I noticed:
My W does this A LOT and it really pisses me off. If something is lost, or missing, she will go around asking where it is, but always in a way to paint the other person as being responsible. For instance, she will ask me "Did you move my purse?"
What amuses me about this is that it looks like your wife does this for the same reason Lillie Boyfriend does. They are trying to protect themselves from having to admit they made a mistake because it FEELS badly to them to admit a mistake. (Well it feels badly to all of us to make a mistake but some people feel it at a much deeper level.) In Lillie's case you tell her to make the changes in communication but in your case you put the changes squarely on your wife's shoulders (which is where I think they belong).
In this case for the examples between Lillie and your wife to be equal it would have to be that Lillie left the window open and then expected her boyfriend to close it for her. But this is NOT the case as far as I could tell. Instead her boyfriend opened the window and she is asking him to remember to close it. Or on the side of you and your wife if you did move your wife's purse but were angry that she asked you if you had, then you would be similar to Lillie and her Boyfriend.
The whole purse example with your wife makes me laugh because in many ways, I know am being stereotypical, that is slightly more of a male tendency. Jeff Foxworthy even used a similar example in his stand-up routine. He was making fun of men using the phrase "someone stole my..." instead of owning up to misplacing something.
In these examples I was more like Cobra or Lillie in my relationship, and I do not think I was sensitive. I was looking for clear direction and communication. If I were Cobra I would prefer his wife say "I cannot find my purse. Have you seen it?" That way it is clear what the problem is and what the solution needs to be. Her asking if I had moved her purse would not make me feel controlled or backed into a corner. It would just make me think she was looking to take the blame off her shoulders because she felt like a bonehead for misplacing her purse once again.
So Mrs Cobra along with Lillie's boyfriend and CAC4 are feeling like boneheads, do not like that feeling, and are looking to place it (the feeling) elsewhere. Lillie and MrsCAC4 are different from Cobra (not good or bad just different) in that they recognize the pain their SOs feel and are trying to figure out a way to change how they interact to fix the problem. Cobra has other issues with his wife and is comfortable and able to directly guide his wife to changing to fit his needs. Another difference may be the thing Lillie and Mrs CAC4 mentioned on my thread. They have a higher threshold of shame so they do not feel that desire to take blame off their shoulders so quickly. It does not cause them pain so they can handle it. Cobra may have more of that shame issue so that is why it is necessary for him to handle his situation differently.
Cobra,
Your comments and thoughts on shame are interesting to me. On my thread I mentioned an interview with a researcher named Brene Brown from Houston that I heard last Friday on the subject of shame. I ordered her books which happen to be on Shame and women. She has studied shame on both sexes and hopefully there will be further written on that subject.
Anyway your comments on shame interest me although I am not sure I agree with the conclusion. For me, there is nothing wrong with the statement "YOU DID something different than I want or need/wrong/etc." The problem is that dependent upon the other person's shame level they may interpret that statement as "something is wrong with me" but that IS NOT what the first person said. So for me the key is not for the first person to necessarily change but for them to be aware of the other person's issue and to HELP them work through it.
There are at least 2 ways I can see that parents help develop shame in their kids. First by the obvious shaming techniques of "you are no good" when they make a mistake. The second less obvious is by NEVER calling a child out on their mistakes so they can learn that while making a mistake is not good it does not make the child bad and they can change their actions. I think parents may have stopped disciplining their children like this with the best of intentions but nevertheless it leaves a child/adult with the feeling that to be told they did something wrong is uncomfortable to the point of shame. Doing something wrong IS NOT SHAMEFUL. EVERYONE does something wrong or makes a mistake in life; we are human.
This second development of shame is harder deal with and from what I hear many companies are dealing with this issue with the Gen Y workforce. Employers are having difficulty because the employees do not, can not, hear criticisms in a useful way. Many were raised without ever hearing a criticism and therefore are struggling. This is not a healthy for anyone - employer or employee.
And this is where I am stumped with how to deal with this with adults once the shame issue is fully developed and the coping mechanisms are firmly in place. My XH and I never had a chance to work through this and I know he is STILL trying to figure it out.
Last edited by fearless; 03/27/0701:22 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I can see problems with cross posting on a public board, but I also see some strong advantages, advantages above individual or joint counseling. Here we don’t have the advantage, or disadvantage, of person to person interaction, tone, yelling, etc. that may come across in counseling. So we have to go on what is written. Also there is no intimidation that can occur within a personal session. So that is the good part, and the bad part.
What I see in you two are similar issues I have had to face in my marriage, so let me say up front, that I will be making positive and negative comments to BOTH of you.
CAC4, let me start with you because I think the biggest issue concerns you, well, actually your father. MrsCAC4 has stated that your father was abusive to you. I don’t recall you ever mentioning that. That makes sense now that she also said you are emotionless, like Mr. Spock. I was called that a lot too. There is a lot to cover, so I will cut to the chase.
I think you need to come to terms with the anger you have toward your father and own up to the control, intimidation and fear he placed on you. That is severely traumatizing. You have been emotionally shut down all your life. Such abuse from a father destroys your ability to feel like an independent, self assertive man. Your W said you always looked to your dad for approval. The only place you found that was in piloting. After you lost that career, you turned your anger on yourself. Makes sense. You were trained to blame your self for everything anyway, right?
I don’t think your anger over losing your piloting career is properly directed. You blame yourself, but I think you are really diverting the anger you have toward your father. If he is that abusive, then I would think you are scared of him, and rightfully so. But if this is true, you are going to have to face this fact. Whether you decide to face him directly is another matter, but at the very least, come to terms with your anger and where you are directing it.
Your father abandoned you, plain and simple. You shut down to self protect. This is typical “not wanting to want.” Each time you wanted reassurance from your dad, he slammed you. So you learned to not want. You have carried that over into your marriage. Now, the one person you loves you and wants to help you is the misdirected target of your anger. Time to grow up and stop denying the truth, time to be honest, stop lying to yourself. If you do not, you risk losing your marriage. This issue will not go away. I will only get worse.
In fact, it has gotten so bad that you have let yourself go physically. You have lost your ambition, your drive, your purpose, your compassion, your love. You keep trying to come to terms with losing your dream of piloting, but that hasn’t given you the relief you seek, has it. Because that is not where your problems lie. Think it over.
MrsCAC4, you now feel that you have been walking on eggshells and now you will not do it anymore, and you are angry for what you have gone through. The focus of your anger is your H, since he is the one who directly affected you. But like him, I think this anger is misdirected. You came into this marriage looking for someone to give you the comfort and security you needed. You have a passive, insecure personality. Your H did not make you like that. You have certain abandonment issues in your FOO as well that create this need in you. You have had the chance over the years to assert yourself, but you never did. Do not blame CAC4 for this. Take responsibility for yourself. Focus your anger where it belongs and look back into your past.
Your H married you knowing you wanted protection. He married you for the same reason . You each needed support and found it in each other. You two are fused and cannot stand on your own two feet. You need each other for support, but as you have each withdrawn, that lack of support has left you each vulnerable. This is of your own making, each of you. Do not blame the other. Learn to stand on your own, then you can come together.
Go buy 2 copies of “Passionate Marriage” and read through it. Then go back to the beginning and work through the book together, discussing how differentiation and enmeshment applies to your M. Bring discussion topics here for more feedback. CAC4, have you picked u a copy of “The Way of the Superior Man by David Dieda?” He speaks of needing to become your own man, and coming out from the shadow of your father. You DESPERATELY need this book.
Lastly, if you two can see yourselves as victims of abusive FOOs, and understand that you each love one another and truly wish to help the other, then make a commitment to work as a team. All problems as common problems to be tackled together. Be very conscious of the other’s shame around these issues. Be empathic. Do not judge. Try to stop the cycle of resentment and the power plays that can easily escalate. Stop this anger right now!!! The both of you!!
For me, there is nothing wrong with the statement "YOU DID something different than I want or need/wrong/etc." The problem is that dependent upon the other person's shame level they may interpret that statement as "something is wrong with me" but that IS NOT what the first person said. So for me the key is not for the first person to necessarily change but for them to be aware of the other person's issue and to HELP them work through it.
You are technically correct. But to the dysfunctional person, that is irrelevant. They hear what they hear because of the filters they wear. Stop trying to argue the point that the person should not have those filters. They do, whether you or they like it. By not acknowledging this, you wear your own set of filters.
Fearless: For me, there is nothing wrong with the statement "YOU DID something different than I want or need/wrong/etc." The problem is that dependent upon the other person's shame level they may interpret that statement as "something is wrong with me" but that IS NOT what the first person said. So for me the key is not for the first person to necessarily change but for them to be aware of the other person's issue and to HELP them work through it.
Cobra: You are technically correct. But to the dysfunctional person, that is irrelevant. They hear what they hear because of the filters they wear. Stop trying to argue the point that the person should not have those filters. They do, whether you or they like it. By not acknowledging this, you wear your own set of filters.
Cobra
Please read my words carefully. I clearly stated that the key is to be aware and to help that other person. This IS acknowledgment. You can have acknowledgment without concession.
What about your wife? When she feels like an idiot for misplacing her purse once again, you have no problem pushing her to stop deflecting. Do you consider how she feels?
Now this is where I get into trouble. I just dashed off those 2 paragraphs feeling happy and interactive with searching for truth and happy that Cobra is willing to take on such a difficult topic. However when I reread them I "worry" that he will feel like I am blaming him or stating that he has done something wrong OR that I feel blamed or have done something wrong. So I write this additional paragraph to reassure Cobra and everyone that I feel fine and I feel fine toward Cobra.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
