BTW - W's birthday is Thursday. I'm having flowers delivered, but she knows that the bouquet is a "replacement bouquet" for the delivery which the company messed up on Valentine's Day (i.e. no charge). I've gotten her a book which she wanted, for DD5 to give to her.
She intends to go shopping for clothes with her birthday money from her mom and her g-mom.
Any ideas? I've actually thought about not giving her anything besides the flowers, but I'm also thinking I should probably give her something. (Maybe something from a local nursery)
Why not go with Corri's idea and get her a very nice art book full of female nudes. I know, I know, it's her birthday and you shouldn't be pushing your agenda, etc. etc. Duh, what was I thinking? Get her a very nice art book full of male nudes!!
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I think Burg is the $50M winner here. Mrs. HD's idea of marriage and what an H should be.
On the surface it may seem as though she is attempting to draw a boundary on HD to define her 'beliefs.' When really, Mrs. HD is struggling with fitting HD the person in with what she believes her idea of HD should be.
When HD waffles and does not hold to his own boundaries, he contributes to the misconception, and she becomes further confused.
It underscores again the critical importance of boundaries.
I've been dealing with this in my own life, so I guess that is why I am seeing it here. Sorry if it seems like a projection.
Just had an incident this weekend with my bf. Got all upset about it, emmotional, dramatic, crying... a friend told me... what are you so upset about, and we talked it through for a good deal of time.
So I go away and think about it. Let the emotions subside, took a nap, cleared my head and looked at it again. I will say... for most women, they tend to act from emotion first. "I'm hurt, I'm angry, I'm whatever..." and the true issue gets lost.
So I left for a time and went driving around. I didn't want to say one word until I had the very specific issue (I hate it, HATE IT when I say something out of emotion that I cannot take back).
What it really came down to was a boundary. And it was MY BOUNDARY. I have two basic boundaries. Honesty and respect. They are non-negotiable for me. But its really hard to throw that down if I am unwilling to BE those things myself. Acting out of emotion is not respectful, and being afraid to be honest myself and throw the issue out on the table is me expecting one thing and doing another.
Typically, when discussing boundaries, there is no fight. When I threw out the boundary, I lost all control over the outcome, and that is when I began to think... 'hm. Women use their marriage vows as boundaries... or what they think of as a boundary... and it really isn't... it's an idea of what they think SHOULD BE (a la Mrs. HD). A boundary is something altogether different. It is the ultimate act of giving up control.
In the absence of having any 'vows' between us, I was struggling, because there was no 'should be,' to hold up to him. Then I had to understand that I was attempting to be controlling (and nothing had happened yet... this was all running through my head as I was thinking it through), and then I realized... this is a boundary issue... this is about my integrity, and do I have the balls to be honest with myself and him... which I was expecting HIM to be with me. It was a very humbling moment for me, and quite a kick in the azz.
So. Having clarity on the issue, I went back and we sat down and talked it through. It took all of 15 minutes. I stated my boundaries, made sure I was CLEAR (cuz women often THINK they are being clear, when really we are not)... asked him to repeat back to me what he thought he just heard... and I had to sit there and allow him the freedom to respond to me in any way he chose. He could have very easily said... oh, I hear you... but sorry, I don't want that. Take care, have a nice life.
It all worked out... and we have a rock solid agreement between us. That doesn't mean that the R is going to work in the long run, nothing of the kind. But we are both very clear on these two boundaries. Doesn't mean we won't screw up, or respond poorly at times, etc., etc.
It isn't that I am controlling his behavior or what he does or does not do. He's a grown man. He gets to be whatever he wants, as do I. But I do expect him to be honest with me, as he does me with him. The minute we become afraid of doing that with each other, we may as well pack it up and call it a day. Hurt I can deal with. Pain. Anger. Whatever. They are emotions. They run their course. Honesty or lack thereof, does not.
And it is flippin' HARD to be honest. For the longer you do it, the more 'exposed' you become, the less 'control' you actually have... but on the flip side, you also have tremendous freedom... and trust.
I think that is why the beginning stages of Rs, and even in dating, it is so hard... because everything intially is wonderful. And it is all surface stuff. You continue on with someone long enough, you eventually run into what they are made of... but most of us, I think, get married before that happens, and we use the VOWS to protect our idea of things... instead of looking to see Who We Are, and What We Stand for... and putting those boundaries in place, regardless of who we are in relationship with... whether it be friend or lover or family member.
This, fearless, is what I think HD is going back to establish. And the better he gets at it, the more exposed Mrs. HD is going to become... she will see her own B.S., not because HD is rubbing her nose in it, but because there are no 'should be's' when it comes to boundaries. They are, or they are not.
Hey Hairdog!! So glad to your confidence up, you sound great.
I have a different viewpoint on the whole 'female appreciation' thing, so I'll share because I think I lean more toward your wife's opinion than the others who've posted.
It IS ok to notice other women and to appreciate, of course it is. However. I feel it is disrespectful to verbalize that appreciation in front of your wife. I would be irritated (at best) if my H said something like that and I don't say things like that about other guys around him either. Last night we watched the Departed and OMG let me just tell you, Leonardo DiCaprio has come a LONG way since Titanic, LOL. But of course I would never say that to H or in front of him. H is my favorite fantasy, but do you think he would have felt that way if I'd have been verbally appreciating Leonardo during the movie? Build each other up, that's my opinion. Complimenting another woman in front of your wife is asking for trouble. Right or wrong HD, that's the way it is for me and that may be the way it is for her too. Bottom line-be you, but be respectful.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I think it is a sad day when you have to guard your thoughts, feelings and reactions just because of how you think someone will react. To me, that is not honest.
Of course there is respect. But the scenario you are describing puts honesty and respect squarely at odds. Which wins?
Just because HD admires a woman does not mean he is going to go 'do' her. He's honest in his appreciation. His actions of being 'faithful' to his wife is respecting her.
Corri, I see what you are saying, but where we seem to diverge is that stating general thoughts of appreciation about the opposite sex is necessary to being true to who you are. I don't believe it is. One of the things that I've learned is that every single thing you think does not have to come out of your mouth. We all know that as human beings, we find other human beings attractive. Just let it be, that's what I'm suggesting. Now, if one feels that they cannot possibly be their true selves without verbalizing those thoughts whenever another human being catches their eye, then I think it's a problem that needs to be addressed by the couple. Otherwise, just let it go because IMO it's a given that we're going to find one another attractive. What good does it do for your R to randomly state who has a great chest and who has fabulous abs?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
No, not every thought you have has to come out of your mouth. And like you said, there are respectful ways of expressing yourself, and not-so respectful ways of expressing yourself.
If HD said, "man, look at those tits! I'd like to do her!" Is he expressing himself honestly? Yes. Is it respectful to Mrs. HD? Probably not. But... Mrs. HD is the one who now has the option of chosing how she takes HDs words. She could blow it off.
I can appreciate the beauty of another human being the same way I appreciate a beautiful horse.
Went out to dinner with my bf Saturday night. He had this waiter come over to our table to say hello to me (we go there regularly, so we are getting to know all the staff). The waiter looks like Andy Garcia, and I just think he is drop dead gorgeous. I think the man is breath-taking. My bf is highly amused by it.
But beyond his looks, and the fact that he seems to be a nice guy, I have no interest. My interest, currently, was sitting across the table from me. My bf is not threatened by my appreciation of good looking men. I don't constantly hold it in his face, either. Same goes for him. He's a leg man. Loves legs. If I'm inhibiting his view, I'll move.
I do think it depends on the people, and what agreements you have between each other.
But I also think that when you do, or not do, something because you are 'afraid' of how someone may act or not act, both honesty and respect have gone out the window.
This is my EXACT point of leaving the objectification/appreciation topic alone. It is a diversion from the main goal - HD's integrity and self-esteem and secondary goal of ML to MsHD.
That said, I am going to comment on this statement from Corri:
But the scenario you are describing puts honesty and respect squarely at odds. Which wins?
Are you saying that we HAVE to tell our SOs about every single thought that crosses our mind in order to be honest? I do not think so but I want to make sure.
If Heather doesn't say "Man that Leo is HOT!", what has been lost in her marriage? What if she looks at her husband and thinks to herself "He looks kind of out-of-shape and unappealing today" - is she dishonest if she does not say that aloud?
I felt she was saying that SHE did not want to say anything about Leo out of respect for her H. Not because she was trying to read his mind OR because he demanded it of her but because she felt it was respectful.
To me the dishonesty would be more of a question if her H asked directly if she thought Leo was Hot and she pretended she hadn't noticed him at all. The same for HD. he did not have to comment about wanting to see the woman's cleavage. If msHD had asked, and expected him to lie then that is a bigger issue to me. That is closer to the issue of honesty and respect at odds.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
heather: I don't think I ever actually complimented another woman last night. I understand why I shouldn't do that, and I could see how easily it could be seen as(and meant to be) disrespectful. Go back to my first post on this thread:
Quote:
We both remarked how unlikely it was for a policewoman to be wearing something like that, but I remarked, "however unlikely it might be, I still like to look at it."
I don't want to get too analytical here, but by "it", I meant, cleavage, in a general sense. (And, by the way, even if I didn't do a good job in the post of explaining that to y'all, I did to my wife). One might argue that focusing on "cleavage in general" falls more on the side of "objectifying" than on "appreciation of the female form," but I don't agree. This started as a discussion on the unlikelihood of such a "cleavage-rich" outfit in a real squad room. My comment was, basically, "I like to look at(I appreciate the beauty of) it (cleavage)." In her arguments, my W even commented that the woman's breasts were not all that impressive (perhaps coming from some sense of jealousy?), and I told her, "I'm not talking specifically about her breasts or her cleavage." I gestured to the tv, because, by that time, yet another beauty queen/cop had appeared in a slinky low-cut cleavage-revealing outfit "...or hers. I'm talking, in general. I like the effect"
Now, how is this any different than my wife coming back from the ballet and commenting about how "ripped" one of the male dancers was? I actually brought this up to her, too, and she said it was more of a comment about the dancer's muscles, and that if she had seen a female dancer with such well-defined abs, she would have commented about that, too. Whatever. The point she was trying to make was that boobs do not equal muscles. (And yet, I wonder, how many empires have fallen due to one or the other?)
Corri and Burg: I'm interested in this whole objectification of ME, subject. I know this is serious, but g.d.it, when am I going to get to suffer from some of the kind of objectification of which I'm being accused? When is my "package" going to be worshiped? Where is MY PAGEANT!?
Finally, I wanted to mention that my wife indicated that one thing she is doing to "make herself more willing" is reading "Sacred Pleasure." Lil...care to comment? Anyone read it? Of course, reading a book is not necessarily what I had in mind she might do to make herself more willing, but heck, this is more about getting her to commit to actually doing something, anything, to become "more willing." I doubt my my idea would go over very well right now, anyway.
