You didn't get mad, you didn't get emotional...you simply stated a fact. Awesome!
FWIW...my H and I have commented on their clothing too, but not so much the low-cut tops...heck I wear those now and then (I know he's a breast man), but more the high heels they wear LMAO. Those women on CSI Miami wear some of the most ridiculous shoes for what their jobs are supposed to be...not a sensible shoe in the bunch LMAO. Nothing like trapsing around the beach or a swamp with 4" stillettoes on LOL....not to mention chasing down a criminal....yeah, whatever!
Still, I say you did awesome! She slipped up in what she was saying to you and gave you the opportunity to dispassionately point out that she's expecting you to do something that she's unwilling to do herself. I find this works GREAT with Mr. GEL!
Hairdog, honey. I know it was tough sticking to your guns. You didn't sigh and talk on and on about "what a hottie" the lady on the tv was you just made a benign comment about liking breasts and your W's in specific. You made the choice to defend your right to be a sexual being. Good for you. Besides, in the absence of that conflict you wouldn't have gotten any anyway despite having had a nice weekend - you just aren't "there" yet. Isn't that about right?
You "goal" is well placed. According to Mrs. HD you could have sex at some point (although she hasn't committed to anything exact) but you couldn't do so with any degree of regularity or expectation of full participation. Well, having sex under those condition isn't a goal so much as it is giving in. The goal of being "the best hairdog you can be" IS the right choice.
Yeah, after I looked at it I do not think I was clear enough.
Instead of the WHOLE statement:
H: So you don't know if you can love me because of this belief, which I've told you is just the way I am; but you want me to be happy with you the way you are when you ignore me sexually? Think about that for awhile.
I think it would have been stronger to state only state "that's your choice. This is who I am."
By bringing up the whole making love argument it actually weakens his cause as far as looking strong and not backing down because now he's trying to force this additional argument into the picture which is the exact argument that MsHD probably thinks lurks behind everything that HD says. If it does lurk behind everything else he talks about, she will still have a hard time respecting him because he does not speak directly and stick to one main subject. IMO anyway.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Fearless, I think his statement was just fine. It got the point across. I think in her case, it was good to point out that she's essentially asking him to accept her as is while not accepting him as is. I don't think this point would have hit home as well without the comparison.
I think it would have been stronger to only state "that's your choice. This is who I am."
By bringing up the whole making love argument it actually weakens his cause as far as looking strong and not backing down because now he's trying to force this additional argument [/b]
Normally I would agree with you. In this case its not extraneous Right now he does need to bring it in as THE argument that is behind this particular conflict, because there needs to be equitability, and relational equality brought to forefront. The subject was his needs and feelings are valid. When they fight about (fillintheblank) Im sure HD would agree with you.
HD the next time you fight and she comes to bed late, give her a silent, warm, affectionate (not passionate) kiss.
I would agree with what you said "if" this were the beginning of the process for HD. Sad fact is...he's been dealing with this for a LONG time now and continually working on it. It's time now to take a firmer stance...in order to get her to take him seriously that HIS needs need to be addressed by her.
His W often uses opportunitites to make his needs appear as "objectifying women"....and well, he's had a tough time getting the courage to stand his ground (no offense HD). She does pull the "feminism" card very often in order to try to shut him down....so, this really was a great opportunity for him to take in order to show her that she's expecting him to do something she's not willing to do. She wants him to accept her as she is, but she's not willing to do the same for him.
One of the larger hurdles I had to get past with my H was to get him out of his constantly defensive stance, Mrs. HD does this too (gets defensive that's part of her throwing out the "feminist" card). I'm someone who can agree to disagree....my H in the past wouldn't. He'd fight tooth and nail to make his point and change my opinion to match his....that is what Mrs. HD is trying to do IMPO. If she can get him to agree that he's "objectifying women" then she doesn't have to step up. She wants him to view things the same way...then she gets her way, but he doesn't get his.
In order to get past issues you don't have to tackle them directly. Their confrontation didn't have to be about sex between them directly...this was an indirect approach at a crucial issue. This little interlude helped HD condition himself to stand his ground though, and that is important in this process.
Besides, in the absence of that conflict you wouldn't have gotten any anyway despite having had a nice weekend - you just aren't "there" yet. Isn't that about right?
That's right.
BTW, I just remembered another funny/interesting interaction. We were getting ready to go on our walk yesterday. I was standing in the closet doorway, shirt off. She was standing in the bathroom, wearing just bra and panties. She wants to get into the closet, but I am blocking her way. W: I have to get in there. H: Okay. Give me a hug. W rolls eyes, squares up her shoulders, gettin' ready for fight. W: Hairdog (Insert Hairdog's last name here)... H: (smiling, channeling blackfoot) You are soooo beautiful right now. W's shoulders slump, she has no answer... she walks forward and I hug her...she hugs back.
Did I mention that this occurred right in front of the toilet, on which our DD5 was sitting? DD5 laughed when W and I parted.
Update: The Jayhawks lost, and that hurts me deeply, but Burgbud is still going to say something he thinks is clever...
You know how sex is like pizza; even when it's bad, it's still pretty good? Well, the Jayhawks are just the opposite. Even when they're really good, they still pretty much suck.
H: So you don't know if you can love me because of this belief, which I've told you is just the way I am; but you want me to be happy with you the way you are when you ignore me sexually? Think about that for awhile.
What I think you pointed out to her is that she objectifies you. She doesn't want you to be Hairdog, the guy who gets a little thrill from seeing a little cleavage, she wants you to be her "husband object". I don't at all know if it's a good idea to do this, but I'd dearly love to know what her reaction would be if you asked her if she can love who you are, or if she can only love her idea of what a husband should be. That should be a wake up call for a good Buddhist, but "good Buddhist" is a way of me objectifying her.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
THIS is where I get confused again. I thought the main goal was HD's integrity and self-esteem which he tested by making a statement he knew would get a response from MsHD and facing her without backing down. After gaining his integrity and self esteem, making love will be the result. In the statements here I feel like we are back at making love as the main goal.
I am not trying to be contrary. I think that this an important issue for HD to sort out. What is his main goal? Keep that at the forefront and keep working on it. At the same time, keep an eye on all the secondary goals and make sure he does not negatively impact those secondary goals while meeting the main goal.
From my point of view HD was the one who brought up the argument (They both agreed that the clothing was an unlikely real-life choice), he also then brought in the making love argument to convince his wife to take his opinion seriously AND to convince her that her attitude about sex was an issue for him. Which does he want her focusing on?
That was my whole point with simplifying his response. Of course BF is right about how MsHD was "testing" him. That is why I would have met it head on rather than "backdooring" into another touchier subject.
Just to be clear about how I see the objectification/ appreciation argument and all the feminist BS cr*p she spews in regards to your primary goal of integrity and self-esteem and secondary goal of ML, I see it as a wall that HD should just go around. Scaling it or trying to break it down is a waste of time and energy at the moment. Would he even care if she continued to feel that way IF he had his integrity and the two of them are making love regularly? It is a red herring IMO. Leave it alone.
To be very clear if she insists on bringing the feminist BS topics up, let her. Be respectful, state your opinion, don't apologize for your differing opinion and don't try to change her opinion, etc. I just would not be the one bringing these topics up if I were HD and I would especially NOT use it to get his points across.
And back to the main goal of integrity and self-esteem and focusing on yourself.
Here is another personal example (have I not mentioned how I hate using my personal examples??) -that as a woman keeping a good body image and feeling attractive, probably a typical issue, was an issue for me. For me whether or not xH and I made love (or whether he spent time with me, or demonstrated any other LL) was not a big factor in whether I saw myself as attractive. Some days we might have ML and I still felt unattractive and others days we did not and I felt great about myself. My point is that I worked to separate myself from my xH (or anyone) so that I was not dependent upon them to feel attractive. That does NOT mean that I did not want to know that xH found me attractive. Of course I wanted and needed to know that. I am just saying that that is a different feeling than the internal feeling of being attractive. By having that internal feeling I did not have to constantly rely on my xH to always prop me up (he did have his own life after all!) Does that make sense? Can you see how that is applicable to you in the case of integrity and self esteem?
Edit to add
I completely agree with BF's comment about kissing her when she comes to bed.
Last edited by fearless; 03/26/0704:05 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
