I understand that it is difficult for most here to read EXACTLY and ONLY what HD wrote without inserting prior knowledge so I just wanted to point out exactly what was said in the exchange. I am naive about things and hopefully that can help.
Full Disclosure: I am still extremely raw after watching two of my best friends end their marriage last November. I have known both of them and been best friends with both of them for 20+ years. I know how good they were and could have stayed together. Selfishly - they were the couple I could call and whomever answered I could talk to. They were so in tune with each other and I knew they talked to each other about everything.
XH was the unhappy one, the one who blamed his wife for all their problems(Direct quote to me "I can only hope and pray that she will figure out her life now but I am not so sure" and complaining about her bouts with genuine full blown medically diagnosed depression "It was that third depression that really did me in" Yeah, like she got depressed on purpose!) and the one who insisted they end the marriage ("I love her but I am not happy loving her" an original spin on the ILYBINILWY dontcha think?)
So now he has changed the story and tells people that he left for his WIFE'S sake. "I did it all for her", he says
He is not a jerk and is not doing this purposely. He sincerely believes this! He is not living in reality. I lived with them for 3 straight months plus on and off for another 3+ months. I know both of their quirks and issues. In fact the H was much more like me than the W was! (He's an engineer and she was a teacher)
I am absolutely convinced he is going through a "midlife passage" but he will not accept anything other than his XW as the fault. In fact in their last counseling together he stated that his only fault in the marriage was "loving her too much and giving too much to her." (Yeah like the job interview question about your weaknesses and everyone says - I work too hard, too perfectionistic, etc.) He is not entirely off the mark. He probably did do too much for her at times but she NEVER asked him to so whose fault is that?? Trust me he does not believe that it is his.
Anyway, it feels like being a kid/adult whose parents have divorced and I have to say IT SUCKS!
So if I push for positive interaction and look for the good, that is why. I do not pretend that anyone is perfect but just look at the nice things HD wrote about his wife in the past 2 weeks! Is this really a guy who wants his marriage to end tomorrow if sex does not begin tonight?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Is this really a guy who wants his marriage to end tomorrow if sex does not begin tonight?
Be fair. Neither Hairdog nor anyone else has said anything remotely resembling that. What he wants is for his wife to acknowledge that sex in their marriage is an issue and to agree to take definite action to work with him on that issue. "I might feel like it in the total absence of pressure" does not count.
The issue is less about sex and more about one spouse utterly neglecting a legitimate want/need/desire of the other.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I appreciate your optimism, too, fearless, and I think there is reason for optimism. The point that I made in my email was that mrs. hd's response was nowhere near the apocalypse that hd feared and has been fearing. They are still in conversation AND hd still has to keep the pressure on.
But in truth, no one knows what goes on behind closed doors... even with your friends.
The advice we offer to friends in person is ALWAYS based on limited information (thank goodness!) and that goes quadruple times a gazillion on this board.
I, too, appreciate your viewpoint, fearless. Whatever is happening, in my marriage, in my W's head, all I can say is that she's still here, is being quite civil - almost friendly - to me, and that she didn't cancel the credit card.
I'm just hoping that Nop is doing better, and that this is the last time he ever has to go through this pain.
Oh, and a horrible thing has happened. I just realized that my W and I are going to see pianist Andre Watts tomorrow night, right in the middle of the Jayhawks game.
I also want to say that everything I have stated, and that everyone else has said, as far as I can tell, is to keep HD’s marriage together, not split it apart. In fact, I think that continuing to look for just the good in MrsHD’s comments is what HD has done for too long. That is why things have become so unbalanced. It is precisely your fear of separation, which HD also feels, that keeps MrsHD in her power position.
Like anyone else, MrsHD has a mental line in the sand over which she will not cross. She may not even know it is there nor has she likely bothered to think about it, but when she sees it she will know it. We all do. That line which we come screaming up to in a huff of anger and resentment, only to look down into the abyss and suddenly realize this is as far as we want to go. We will not cross that line.
Whether that line is D or something else, we do not know. But we must find out, because until you look into the abyss and come to realize its cost, everything up to that line cannot be priced. For most of us that line is D. When you come face to face with its real cost, to you and your family, then the price of everything else starts to take on meaning as something you can afford to pay. Even the ego becomes easier to swallow.
Hairdog has had to cross that line before and he knows the cost. So he stays as far away from it as he can, which is what weakens him. MrsHD does not seem to have any idea of this. For her no price is too great to pay because there is no line that she can even see. There is no opportunity cost to her hardball tactics. Only by pushing her up to the line of D will she understand the cost of the abyss and the true value of respect and cooperation. IMO, that is the difference between tough love and enabling.
I understand what you are saying and I know how painful it is to watch someone's M end that you care greatly about. The people on this board are not pro-D. Most people come here out of sheer desperation because that is the last thing that they want. That being said, sometimes there are serious imbalances in a R, deceptions, deflections, one-sided efforts being made that require some pretty scary, rigorous "outing" if they are ever to change. Mrs. HD has a lot of strengths that HD has listed time and time again. Unlike some folks, even after getting continuously rejected and called selfish and immature HD still finds her attractive. Well, I think that is pretty impressive and bodes well for the ability of this M to withstand some pretty harsh winds.
Cobra is correct in stating that Mrs. HD has no idea what her lack of respect for HD's needs could cost her. HD isn't perfect but she liked something about him enough to marry him. Maybe she can recognize that better if she becomes concerned that she may lose him or that their children could lose the family that they have created together or even that she may lose her absolute conviction about being "right".
A fresh perspecitve IS always good and often points out things that were missed. Sometimes the thing that gets missed is when there is an imperceptible chink in the armor of someone who we have come to think of as nearly impenetrable, like Mrs. HD. She isn't an ice queen. She does have her vulnerabilities and her positives and like you, we are pulling for HD/Mrs. HD and the marriage.
HD,
No advice for you. Hang on to yourself. It isn't easy and you aren't wrong for wanting a marriage that includes sex and intimate connection. You ARE willing to meet Mrs. HD at some reasonable negotiated point. You ARE NOT a rat b@stard. Remember that when she makes you doubt it.
I am so pleased for you HD. You made her face the major issues head on. As Cobra has said you've been to the abyss before and are much more shy of it than she is and it has weakened you. I feel the same way myself. When I met H I was just out of a long-term R. It puts the more naive partner in a much stronger position.
She has said yes to sex just not scheduled sex. Keep calling her out on that one, there is no way you can tell if she's keeping her word unless there's some kind of deadline/schedule. For example sex once a week does not have to mean sex every Saturday night, it just means one time a week anytime.
However in every other aspect of our lives, BUSY BUSY lives, we know that if we do not plan, do not have deadlines, do not have schedules then it just doesn't get done. There is no such thing as just doing something in an idle moment.
Keep it up HD you have the POWER OF THE SSM BOARD behind you
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
