I saw the CB-2000 pictures. I think CeMar was doing this as aself imposed exercise, like cant F so I/he will lock it up. but better let him explain his reasons for a CB-2000.
He wouldn't have been the first male that felt an erection and internal sexual desire was a curse to be fixed. I remember reading about guys saying they wished there was a pill to reduce their sexual desire.
Or as in your sitch, grumbling about BB’s pickyness and withholding of affection, then judging (and implicitly demeaning) her in return. I don't see the point not give examples of my frustrations w/o giving the reasons behind them.
I suppose I could say I want sex 2X a week and not post reasons why it doesn't happen.
RE: Cobra When she says you resist change and are not open to new ideas, is she talking on an EC level? BB talks very little about EC terms or feelings.
Changes are in the form of new things for the house, clothing, or even a new house. I prefer to use till worn or out dated.
After all that dialogue, I can’t see anything but finger pointing at BB’s issues.
You’re still judging her…
More judging…
More judgment… OK, I do say many negative things about BB. I will post more goals, rather than problems.
Can you see this scenario Lou? I can’t tell if anything I say is getting through. You keep replying by dancing around the issues and never tackling anything head-on. Cobra, you are getting through. I explain the why's to too many things and that looks like I am dancing around the issue. Some of your suggestions come across as abrasive to a relationship or almost winning at the OP’s expense. I truly see I shouldn’t make my goal to make/keep BB happy so much of the time.
Some of your suggestions/ideas sound like the thing I exactly need to do and I do them. In the process , some start out well and finish well. Some start well but end up going sideways on me.
Last night I had something I was telling BB. The conversation style started out in the confident camp, then turned wimpy. I decided I was digging a hole so stopped talking. That is OK too. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Yesterday BB did talk about some EC related subjects. We went over some past experiences and what they caused us to think at the time and how we felt.
BB wanted to get married in a short time after we met and because I didn't move ahead, she felt she loved me much more than I loved her. Me, OTH, loved BB, but couldn't see how we were going to live on my Army income and fund the responsibilities I had and/or would incur.
We went over what was good in our early R, about the dreams we had, the passion, the hot sex, and up to the point that BB felt I lost interest in the R, about 5 years into the M.
I once again explained I wasn't losing interest in her, but that financial obligations were weighing more heavily on my mind, and took more of my time. I talked about alternatives I might have taken to allow me to spend less time working.
The point I wanted to make and did, was, what BB saw as less love for her, less sexual desire, was my super sense of responsibility gaining in strength. She had the dream; I saw what took to reach a goal.
I listed the things we might have cut out of our spending process and how much our church activities/duties and $$ contributions we made, caused me to work even more.
Part of the conversation boiled down to BB desiring certain feelings and things with in a M, and me having my own goals, in addition to hers, but it was very important for me to figure out a way to make things happen.
I didn't feel like I had to prove a point or apologies for doing something that was not 100% right, other than saying, if I had it to do over, I would change a few things.
There was EC on both our parts and some movement away from blame or accusing for things that had results that were less than expected.
With some good EC, I turned up the sexual connection and met some resistance, but put on my "Hank" personality to move forward.
^^(OO)^^ Yes, pigs flew and higher than a couple of weeks ago. Hairdog, you can say "lucky-------"
Funny how your concern for her made you work even harder, which forced you to distance more due to your work, which caused her to be more anxious and ask for more things to feel secure, which caused you to work even harder, which caused her to be more insecure….. and all the while what you both needed was just a good talk and some bonding time together!
Does this cause you to see her avoidance, her criticalness, her pickiness, her LD, in a new way? BTW, when you got lucky, did she complain of her usual physical problems?
Great job!!! How does it feel to be the leader? Good. It feels even better to get her to see what I was telling her all along, I was taking care of her, us, and the family. BB can want and desire a storybook family life but someone or someones' have to do the grunt work or have several streaks of good fortune. We had some good breaks and some bad breaks.
The good part was putting into practice when I met resistance, was to not back down or have to feel like I had to use more persuasion to make a point. A couple of times I sort of ignored her resistance and nothing really went wrong other than some verbal resistance.
At one point, I spoke of my true intentions/feelings again and encountered smoke screen or resistance or something similar. Being more detached allowed me to think “Oh well, if that is what BB thinks/feels it's her loss,” w/o me feeling like I had to fix anything or feel like I had been shorted changed. I was there to put out what I needed say and give, and I was there to take what I needed at the moment.
To do this, I had to get to the point where I could walk out on the M w/o feeling like I failed, or feeling like I had to make the M work, or feeling like either one of us was a bad person.
I had a similar situation was when I was in the Army. Sometimes I drove a supply truck. In the morning, I went to the motor-pool and was assigned a truck log-book. The book had a number on it, so you walked out to the truck/vehicle line and drove the truck/vehicle assigned to you to carry out your daily, assigned job.
Some guys wanted a particular truck/vehicle and were cranky if they weren't assigned that vehicle. I just decided, the daily vehicle assignment was what I had to work with for how ever long the job lasted and to make the best of the situation.
I always had an ownership mindset concerning M. In the Army I had a more of a duty perspective and little ownership thoughts.
Anyway, it helps to not own BB's feelings and actions and work with what is there. It helps to give up ownership of a M and think more about two people, and what they need.
and all the while what you both needed was just a good talk and some bonding time together! We had bonding time and distancing periods before to some degree. The problem was the bonding was short and weak and the distancing times often and strong. Last night the bonding was a little stronger than it has been in a while.
Does this cause you to see her avoidance, her criticalness, her pickiness, her LD, in a new way? Can I say, BB has code, uses code that makes the R difficult for me to read what is the cause of problems. I see some of her avoidance is based on our history.
Our history was good for the first 5 years, then we built this house and the financial part of our R started to go wobbly.
As for her pickiness, let’s say I know she really wants me in her life and to be around me, but I also know she wants a higher standard of living than I feel is necessary or was accustomed to.
Her mother was in the Miss USA pageant (1930's) and her dad was a Dr. but died when BB was 4, so I see some of the reasons for the differences we have.
She is absolutely sure fate brought her to me and the R, I OTH think compatibility and willingness to work on issues is more important.
The LD, I see reasons for it too. What I work on/look for daily/weekly are solutions. I will say, after beng on the forum 2.5 years later, the sex is down by 50%, which fits a pattern, the more I work on something, the less the OP has to do. I will add age and medical situations has had a negative effect on our SL. Age seems to affect BB more than me.
BTW, when you got lucky, did she complain of her usual physical problems? Yes, complaints but they were down by 50/60%. I wouldn't say I did a full F job on/with BB, but it was better than the last time.
If I was with Mojo's same age as me twin/alter ego and we were on American Idol Sexcapades, Simon would have a comment like good touching, fair kissing, but when are you going to really ML to this girl.
Let's say going slow and cautiously is all the higher I dare go or BB's uncomfortable buzzer sounds off. What are BB's inhibition/lack of desire/can't get any grove out of sex and what is really physical problem is difficult for me to sort out. I can feel the mood changing according to what I do if I go to fast or go to far. I ask for feed back and make suggestions but receive few answers or commitments. What I do hear are age relate or medical explanations. BB tells me “that is the way it is when a woman is __________. Still our SL is better than some couple’s our age. I still wish for a better non-sexual R and a better SL.
Let's say going slow and cautiously is all the higher I dare go or BB's uncomfortable buzzer sounds off. What are BB's inhibition/lack of desire/can't get any grove out of sex and what is really physical problem is difficult for me to sort out.
Why is it your responsibility to sort this out? Let her be responsible for something, let her feel empowered in some way, even if it is scary for her. Don’t rescue!
I ask for feed back and make suggestions but receive few answers or commitments.
Stop it Lou. You don’t need this, at least for now. This is asking for YOUR validation and it puts BB on the spot, in a situation that is already uncomfortable for her.
What I do hear are age relate or medical explanations. BB tells me “that is the way it is when a woman is __________.
Just more deflections. Don’t give them any weight or acknowledgement. Maybe she really has some issues, but she has proven time and time again that she can work past them when she has to. The timing of when she can have sex is curiously tied to your pushing in the M and does not seem to be tied to anything else, or am I missing something?
Still our SL is better than some couple’s our age.
Don’t patronize yourself.
Good. It feels even better to get her to see what I was telling her all along, I was taking care of her, us, and the family.
Be VERY careful with this Lou. This does not mean that you “won” and finally got BB to see things your way. Her way is every bit as valid as yours. This type of thinking, that your are right, is part of what set up the power struggle to begin with, remember?
A couple of times I sort of ignored her resistance and nothing really went wrong other than some verbal resistance.
At one point, I spoke of my true intentions/feelings again and encountered smoke screen or resistance or something similar.
Good, and she didn’t leave you either, did she?
Being more detached allowed me to think “Oh well, if that is what BB thinks/feels it's her loss,” …
I still think that what she wants is for you to rescue her, which is not good, but you can show empathy for her views, regardless of whether you agree or not . IT IS IMPORTANT SHE HEAR THIS FROM YOU.
To do this, I had to get to the point where I could walk out on the M w/o feeling like I failed, or feeling like I had to make the M work, or feeling like either one of us was a bad person.
It was not necessary that you had to reach this point. That was your own doing. There were plenty of other paths along the way. You just chose not to take them.
Can I say, BB has code, uses code that makes the R difficult for me to read what is the cause of problems. I see some of her avoidance is based on our history.
Can you see that you use a TON of code yourself? I understand that whole bit about the Army and what you are saying, and why it does make a good example. But if you use the same tactic with BB, it might come across as lecturing, sort of like sitting down your kid and telling her a parable in order to get across a moral lesson. If BB is in a defensive mode, she might take this as demeaning. Give her the respect to figure things out for herself. If she doesn’t understand, she can come ask. You need to find a way to get her to engage with you, not always the other ay around. These long, drawn out lectures can be seen as signs of desperation (though not necessarily so). Remember, she is probably very scared, so desperation is not good for her to sense.
We had bonding time and distancing periods before to some degree. The problem was the bonding was short and weak and the distancing times often and strong. Last night the bonding was a little stronger than it has been in a while.
I would keep up the momentum. Remember, you yourself said you tend to quit too early. You’ve only gotten her to crack open the shell a little. There is a ton of stuff inside there, a lot of it that you won’t want to hear. Keep opening it up by revealing more of yourself. Just sit a while and let her judge you, then talk about how you feel. She might like that.
As for her pickiness, let’s say I know she really wants me in her life and to be around me, but I also know she wants a higher standard of living than I feel is necessary or was accustomed to.
By what I’ve seen in your sitch, I wouldn’t be too sure you know her accurately, so I wouldn’t assume this.
She is absolutely sure fate brought her to me and the R, I OTH think compatibility and willingness to work on issues is more important.
Stop it. Let her believe what she wants. This is not all about Lou.
The LD, I see reasons for it too. What I work on/look for daily/weekly are solutions. I will say, after beng on the forum 2.5 years later, the sex is down by 50%, which fits a pattern, the more I work on something, the less the OP has to do.
Maybe this is another assumption? Maybe you think your are really working hard on the M, but BB sees it another way? Maybe you were working hard but not smart, so the sex fell off?
The investment book, “The Motley fool Investment guide by David and Tom Gardner arrived today. Their workbook is on the way.
I ordered "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. I am not looking to the book for a cure or revelation. It was listed in one of the church marriage booklets and on this forum several times.
Re cobra Maybe this is another assumption? Maybe you think your are really working hard on the M, but BB sees it another way? She does see it another way!
I still think that what she wants is for you to rescue her, which is not good, but you can show empathy for her views, regardless of whether you agree or not . IT IS IMPORTANT SHE HEAR THIS FROM YOU. I agree.
I know from experience an up cycle is followed by a down cycle, and it happened a little yesterday. Not much of a problem for me when I know it's coming, just have to do what I need to do and maintain the boundaries. The up cycle is showing signs of starting again.:)
Mrs. Cac4 I've always had issues with the BB format because of the lack of instant feedback as you get with a live convo. But, I'm putting out my thoughts, trying not to fret about them and how people perceive them, and stepping out of my comfort zone. I tried live chat but found it to be superficial and rely on memory. The people with strong opinions or photographic memories do well. I need to think about some things and check some things out. Going back and re-reading things, checking some facts, woks best for me.
The posters here are a great bunch of people. I have never met more informed, more helpful posters.
H and I are lucky to have very similar spending habits. In your sitch, you need to set boundaries and limits. Does BB have a set amount of $ that she can spend on whatever she wants?
At one time I bought in to the idea that her income was mostly hers. I didn’t agree with that sort of femanist idea, but I went along with it on the surface.
Or is she spending excessively and that spending is having repercussions on your finances/budget? If it's the former, I think you just need to let it go. You may think she is spending the $ on stupid things, but you really can't control it. It becomes a power struggle. If it's the latter, then you need to speak up and come to a compromise you both can live with. At one time BB spent $5.2K on things advertised TV shopping channels and another $5/7K on local purchases for shoes/purses, clothing/kitchen gadgets per year. I said it had to stop or I was leaving. It was from her income and an inheritance. I paid all household expenses. She cut back on the spending and now is in the get rid of what she bought previously. It feels like a merry-go-round to me . Buy, use, give away, buy some more….. Now it’s “less is better” well except now she wants a bigger house with everything on one level.
Regarding talking, I used to get really upset with H when he would look at the TV while I talked to him. I always felt that he didn't really care what I had to say and that he was chosing the TV over me. I can imagine you feeling that way.
I began telling him I wanted to talk and then asking him to turn off the TV. He didn't have to look at me, but he had to give me his undivided attention. Good solution.
We always would get off topic, go off on tangents, etc. Actually, it was me who did almost all the talking, so I would get off topic. Some marriage counselors advise shelving a convo that can't be resolved to be picked up at another mutually agreed-upon time, but I found that very hard to do. BB brings up reasons why she wants to move, why my business in the basement bothers her. I bring up R issues. Good advice about shelving issues but difficult to do for a goal oriented guy like me. Yes it is difficult to stop once the ball gets rolling.
What I did find, though, was that each time H and I had one of our talks, I would get more insight into our R. Well, that helps. Nothing like feeling a little progress to make one want to do more. Our biggest problem I think was that H was virtually unable to tell me his feelings about anything. Tell feelings w/o the OP taking what one person says as a dig/putdown/insult?? That is where things go wrong for me.
When he did talk, what he said sounded so angry and defensive that it really threw me. BINGO! I usually can’t get past a similar point with BB, then she throws in her past medical problems, our past financial differences, and then I feel like I have to make allowences and give up anything more than I will call minimum wage type of R.
It took some reading for me to figure out what we were doing. (One book that helped was "The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work" by John Gottman. This book gave me some insight into our communication patterns and why they weren't working. I have that book and “The Relationship Cure” and about 20 other R/M/C books I read while BB read 2 books about dogs. She told me (opinion) the R and sex books are written for a man’s benefit mostly so the guys can hope to have more sex, even if a women wrote the book.
Why do you think BB takes your compliments as criticism? Can you give examples? Ex. I say “WTG on walking on the treadmill 3x this week” her reply might be “Oh, so are you saying I am fat.”
H's self-protection mode was to be avoidant/dismissive. For a person like me who really likes to talk about my feelings, it was torture to be shut out like that. I took it personally for many years until I understood he was only self-protecting. Sort of a role reversal situation here.
As H admitted on Cemar's thread, he hasn't really "done" anything proactive, other than buy Michele's book and post his thoughts here. But he has done one other thing, and that is to respond positively to my changes and efforts. That has made all the difference. BB does acknowledge I have changed for the better and thinks I am her one and only, at least in words, but there are not many improvements in the R for me to say it’s working or worth it. Some things are out of our control like past medical./ financial problems but what we do have health and money wise, speaks poorly for what could be.
I did tell BB I could see her happier with some one with double the income and not a saver like I am. It was after she said we were meant to be together and I said I felt Good R’s were more a function of compatibility and what people were willing to put into the R and didn‘t have that much to do with being with someone that destiny chose. I said I am glad destiny is working for her but it isn‘t for me.
We are back to her wanting a different one-level house and me thinking about just living here in the house I built in 1974.
NOP, I brought the dance topic up 2X and got a "no way" and a "what are you thinking of" look from BB. I imagine that was an expected response.
If I carry out the dance situation, BB will put on her abused/neglected wife uniform and try to dress me in one of those bad H speed-o swim trunks, football body type and all.
BB has had some knee pain so doesn't want to do some things. She will do things she likes that require a little walking. The knee issue is another thing related to wanting a one-level house.
Almost forgot, one dog is having eye-sight problems. Another reason for a new house.
"Self -development is a higher duty than self-sacrifice.
