I am exhausted again tonight and am getting ready to head off to bed but wanted to give you a few quick updates:
1.) Trip to parents'house went fairly well. As I was advised, I went from being very happy one minute to a state of panic five minutes later, so it was a bit of a roller coaster, but I am glad that we went, and I truly think H is, too. We did a lot of fun things with his parents. I was not clingy at all (unlike before), nor did he reach out to me at all, which was okay. It was great to see his parents and their place, and I know we both really enjoyed that. I did not bring up anything about the M to the parents, nor did they ask if anything was wrong, etc. I did not have any meltdowns in front of them. I worked really heard on just "being me" - being the way I've always been around them and putting myself "in check" if I felt like I was talking too much. We did ML three times while we were there. It was nice but really awkward. For me, we are ML; for him I feel like it's just sex. But I have to hope that he would have not ML to me if he doesn't feel anything for me anymore, but who knows... It was nice to be close to him but hurt at the same time, as I look into his eyes and see no emotion, no love, no wanting - my old H is just not there. I understand this and know that all of this will take time to heal and will hopefully be much better than before, but it's just really hard right now.
We both hardly slept at all the whole time we were there. I took sleeping pills every night and still struggled. H usually has NO problems whatsoever sleeping, even when there is turmoil. So I guess this at least showed me that he IS thinking and disturbed by SOMETHING - what that is, I don't know for sure.
I only did (I think) one backslide while there. I think I caught him texting her in his parents' family room, which enraged me. I asked him if he was texting her, and he said no. I rolled my eyes at him and left the room and took a shower.
We had just received a call a few hours before that that a friend of ours had a stroke. He is okay, but it really shook me up and put my already tender emotions in overdrive. So, since I knew I had backslid with that comment (even though I had every right to be disgusted that he would be texting his OW at his parents' house with me there...), I knew I needed to fix it and fix it quick. So, when we got into bed I told him that I was sorry for what I had asked him and that I knew what our "deal" is right now, that we're just friends and that he needs to do what he needs to do. I told him I had gotten upset about our friend who had the stroke and that my emotions got the best of me and that I was sorry. He thanked me, and I left it at that. I'm not sure if that was the best 180, but I tried... We then ML a little while later.
The hardest part about ML is that, as I said, I feel no emotion from him, and that hurts. We used to snuggle all the time, and he'd hold me and rub my hair. Now he just turns his back to me all the time and won't even touch me, but yet he'll make love to me? Do you think he's just testing the waters to see if he'll feel something if we ML? It's confusing to me... BTW, I did really enjoy ML to him and am feeling much better about the possibilities regarding that aspect of our R. But only time will tell if this is only because of the current crisis.
At any rate, the trip was really nice and fairly uneventful by way of any breakdowns, R talks (none except for my text message comment), and we laughed together and had a nice time. I had times when I felt my heart was ripping out of my chest and just swallowed and remembered that I had to be me and not let me emotions get the best of me. I think I did much better than our Mexico trip.
So when we got home, he put his bag from our trip into his car and said he was going to go check on the apartments and "live" out of the bag for a day or two (or something like that). I asked him if he would come home when he was done looking at the job site last night, and he said "we'll see." I asked him if he would start coming home just every once in a while, and he said yes - so we'll see if that comes to fruition or not. I did point out to him some things that we had done as far as ML that normally would have been way out of my comfort zone, and he gave me a hug and I told him that I am trying...
When I went to the office this morning, it appeared as if he had indeed slept there last night EXCEPT for the clothes he wore last night were no where to be found.... The office bed was all messed up like he'd slept in it, but the clothes he wore yesterday were not there and not in his suitcase. The only other place they could be are his car (why would he change his clothes in his car - unless he did so if he did actually check on the apartments last night) - or at OW house.
1210, I know you've been on the other side of this situation as well. Do you think that H would deliberately mess up the bed at the office to make it appear as if he had slept there when he actually hadn't just to "throw me off" and not hurt my feelings? H usually doesn't think like this - he's pretty straightforward and just kind of does what he wants to do, so this seems like it would be too much planning on scheming on his part, but I just wanted to see what you think.
So, today he called me at around 11:30 and got my voicemail. I purposely did not call him back. I left the office around 3:15 for my massage and dinner with my friend. I saw him as I was leaving the office - he had just pulled in. He motioned for me to wait, and I waved and motioned to call me, that I had to go.
So he did call me, and he was really pleasant to me, and we just went over some work stuff. Then we got off the phone. I went to my massage appointment and dinner with my friend and had a really nice time. We finalized the names of the girls we are going to invite for our weekly girls' night get-togethers and hope to do the first one the first week of April. I'm really looking forward to that.
So I was with her until about 8pm and did not even have my cell phone with me. So did not talk to H or get any messages from him the rest of the night.
As I knew it would be, the hardest part was coming home and then having him leave again right away. I know he may have tried to make it "seem" like he stayed up at the office, but I have my doubts. If we truly had made any progress on this trip, I would have hoped that he would have stayed with me, if only for one more night, especially since we got home so late. I know I can never know what goes on in his mind, but I fear that either he missed her so bad that he couldn't wait to see her or that he was so torn up from being with me (hopefully in a good way) that he just needed to get away from me for a while to think. I just don't know...
I have an appointment tomorrow with my therapist and then another appointment tomorrow afternoon with the DB therapist. I plan on sharing both the events that have transpired recently as well as your concerns with the way I am handling things, etc.
I am exhausted now and need to get some rest but wanted to at least give you the update and tell you that I am still listening to what you are saying and appreciate so much your continued support. Please don't give up on me! I will discuss some of the issues you raised with the therapists tomorrow and will use all of what you all are telling me to help me grow. I WANT TO DO THIS - please know that. But it's sometimes not just as easy as saying, 2940, you just need to turn the other cheek when he says this to you, or you just need to deal with sleeping by yourself with no one's touch for as long as you can, or you just need to deal with having to work in the same office with your H who is sleeping with OW - just GAL and get on with it! While in concept I know that most of this is what needs to be done, just as I need to have patience during this whole crisis, I guess I'm asking for your patience with me, too. My world as I've known it for the last 10 years has been turned upside down, and I'm hurt, scared, angry, sad - so many things. So it's not that I don't WANT to follow anyone's advice; it's just hard, and it hurts, and I hurt, and I'm tired of hurting and having him just going on with his jolly little OW and expecting me to keep making our business successful. I hate his actions in expecting me to do that with a smile on my face... I know you all said that i need to just "act as if" and keep the business afloat, but if I do that, why in the world would he ever want to make things any different than they are now? He's literally got the best of both worlds while my heart is tearing in two...
Anyway, enough rambling for tonight. Thanks for giving me some more tough love. And, you're right, I know that a lot of times I do listen to other's advice and still just do what I want to do - I suppose that's part of my controlling nature. It's just so hard for me to do things that hurt so much and make my heart want to tear out of my chest. I can tell you that I would have been 10 times more miserable if we would have stayed home this weekend than I was when we went. The hurt is fresh again from him going back to her again now (especially after ML to me), but I knew that was a possibility, so I'm just going to have to live with it.
I'm going to work on my goals and questions for tomorrow's sessions. Feel free to let me know if there is anything that you think would be beneficial in particular at this stage to talk with them about.
Thanks again for hanging in there with me, guys. I'm sorry that I've let you down......
I'll write more tonight, I'm rushing to meet a deadline - but I just have to say - who cares what we think? You're not letting us down and you don't owe us an apology. Ever.
This is a board for you to journal on and confidentially express the best and worst things that have ever happened to you.
Please don't apologise to us. You are doing this as fast as you can. You are doing the best you can. Be proud of that. We all operate on our own timeframe. There is no getting around that.
You are exactly where you are supposed to be. Trust that.
I'll write more tonight.
x
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
First of all - congratulations on such good DBing over the weekend. You have come a long long way and you should be very proud of yourself. We should tick off all the positives
No R talk - excellent Absolutely minimum backslide - fantastic No breakdowns in front of the parents - perfect You were "yourself" - can't do better than that Having fun and laughing together - priceless Calls going to voice mail and making yourself less available - you are a legend. That's great work Getting a life, hanging out with girlfriends - excellent, excellent, excellent Working with 2 therapists tomorrow - huge (although your dreams will be complex tomorrow night!!!! [or is it just me who has weird dreams after I've been to counselling?])
Tam, you are doing really well.
It might be helpful for you to complete a list each day of all the things you did right. You are really hard on yourself. We are hard on you too - because we've got a couple of years on you and are offering advice based on what we've learned - but you are at the beginning and congratulating yourself on things you've done well is a great start to building your own self esteem. Being genuinely proud of the progress you've made will help you to continue in the same way.
As for making love - the jury is out on that one. You percieve he's not really there and that's legitimate, but remember you are super sensitive at the moment. Remember what we learn about "assuming"? (When you assume - you make an ass out of u & me!!) You don't know what's going on in his head and it's pointless to try to figure it out.
It's not surprising that he went to his caveman "space" mode when you got home. This isn't all going to change in a hurry for him. You were expecting it and you are becoming more resiliant in accepting it, yeah?
Who knows if he slept at her place or at the office - it doesn't really matter. OW is a symptom of something much bigger going on in his life and that's his part of the journey. Don't shred yourself about it because there is nothing you can do.
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My world as I've known it for the last 10 years has been turned upside down, and I'm hurt, scared, angry, sad - so many things. So it's not that I don't WANT to follow anyone's advice; it's just hard, and it hurts, and I hurt, and I'm tired of hurting and having him just going on with his jolly little OW and expecting me to keep making our business successful.
I know you hurt. It hurts for a long time. Grief is a crappy visitor.
I suspect what imLim was talking about though is our capacity to accept that it hurts and get on with the job anyway. It's about not making excuses for ourselves. Accepting that it's hard and it hurts - but we are going to do it the right way anyway? Does that make sense?
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I know you all said that i need to just "act as if" and keep the business afloat, but if I do that, why in the world would he ever want to make things any different than they are now? He's literally got the best of both worlds while my heart is tearing in two...
I guess that's the part you need to really figure out. There are only really 2 alternatives.
1. "Stand" for your marriage; or 2. tell him to hit the road
If you want to "stand" and do everything you can to save it, the best way to do that is to follow the DB philosophy. The hard part is the closer you stick to the "rules" theoretically the more likely you are to succeed in restoring your marriage - that means for the time being you have to grin and bear it. You can kick and scream and beat him up - but that's not going to save your marriage.
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I hate his actions in expecting me to do that with a smile on my face..
He's not expecting you to deal with it with a smile on your face - you decided to do that when you chose to take pro-active action to save your marriage, because you know you catch more bees with honey than with whatever sour stuff you have lying around.
If you choose to cut him loose -- you can take the smile right off your face, take him to the cleaners financially, and let him know right then and there that there is no such thing as having the best of both worlds. That's a strategy that there is rarely any going back from .... Of course, you will still be in pain and you will still have to grieve. It's a conundrum.
The bottom line here however is that - it is what it is - unfortunately and painfully - there is no going back. He's had an affair - he's got one foot out the door, this is all over to you now.
Sometimes we just have to be pragmatic and get on with it.
Keep at it my friend. You are getting stronger every day.
V x
PS: 2940 - If I was going to give you one piece of constructive critisim tonight - it would be STOP SNOOPING!!! When you go looking for clues about where he stayed and what he's doing it only hurts you - and you're not into masochism are you?
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
I will comment more later, as I have to get out the door here, but I wanted to ask a real quick question about the business, as that has been on my mind more and more. Wanted to get your thoughts before I talk to therapist(s) today.
I know I've asked you this before, and you've told me to "act as if" and just keep on going as if nothing has changed with our business. Well, I've been thinking about it more and more and wanted to revisit it with you to see if you have the same opinions now.
First, real quick, when he and I talked the other night before the parents' trip, he talked about splitting all of our properties up. I did not tell him this, but MY preference if it comes to that would be to SELL what we have, split the proceeds, and then we both have a nest egg to start over. I have no desire for HER to ever be involved with a house that WE built together that was a part of OUR dreams, etc. I don't want to drive by a house that I let HIM have and feel the sting. Maybe these are feelings that will pass and maybe they aren't right to feel, but I just feel like these are all things that he and I built together, and I don't want to just give half of them to him. It feels more right in my heart to have a formal "end" to those items and each of us start from scratch from there. Will that suck? Absolutely. But for me, it's what my heart is telling me - at least for now.
Please don't misunderstand - by no means am I getting ready to throw in the towel. I'm far from that. The business thing just keeps eating at me...
So, I need to refinance a bunch of houses right now, and H is in the process of looking for more real estate to buy. In theory, if done as before, both of these activities involve us both having ownership (even though I have control of the ownership) of the properties.
I am having a really hard time with going to the office everyday and putting on my smiley face (I know it's my choice and I want to do that for the sake of our marriage) and making everything just "come together" for our business, just to go home "by myself" and be hurting so much inside knowing that he he going to be with someone else. I just don't know if I WANT to contribute to doing things that make him (and potentially someone else) happy. It's not that I don't WANT him to be happy - that's the furthest from the truth. But I almost feel myself feeling like, "you know, H, if you're choosing to quit on our personal life, fine, but don't expect me to just keep giving my all to the business while you do this." ... He's got everything he could possibly want! The good little wifie on one side making his financial dreams a reality and the good little whatever on the other side for whatever else. Part of my point is, IF HE CONTINUES TO HAVE THIS DONE FOR HIM, why in the world would he EVER want to come home? Does he need to get a taste of what it WOULD be like to NOT have me around to just continue on with my part of the business? I don't know... I'm just venting, so bear with me. I just hurt every day working on the business when my heart is tearing in two - I don't enjoy what I'm doing anymore, and I hate that. And it makes me angry that he just gets to clobber my heart and then expect me to just carry on. I'm just trying to work through these feelings, i guess, so thanks for letting me vent.
So I'm wondering if it would be better for me to just tell H that we should concentrate on finishing up the projects that we are working on right now and then see where we're at at that point, that if he finds something he thinks we should buy then he can buy it himself in his own name... I kind of eluded to that the other night. He said he thought I had just as much of a right to all of the "leads" he is working on right now and didn't I want to be a part of it? With tears flowing down my cheeks, I shook my head "no." He then got tears in his eyes and told me to go get our real estate portfolio and we'll just get this over with and figure out splitting everything up now. Of course I said, no, that that's not what I wanted.
My point is that he seems to just think we can go on buying real estate together and refinancing together, yada, yada, and if my end result if this doesn't work out involves selling everything, why should we make it more messy? And why do I want to keep doing everyhing I can to make his life so damn easy? I KNOW he's working equally as hard to keep our business going well during our "crisis," and I truly am so appreciative of that. But it's EASY for him - he doesn't have a hard time throwing himself into his work when he's dealing with something personal. Me? My concentration level is horrible. And I know 1210 said that is a conscious choice, and I'm trying, but I just don't find that I have the energy - the desire - the patience - whatever it is, to want to do it. I hate that I don't love my work anymore, that I feel my dreams that I've worked so hard for slipping through my fingers, and I hate that he wants me to keep working so hard so that he can be happy sleeping with another woman. If he wants to be with her, shouldn't he have to create his own financial happiness now? Why should I have to contribute to him tearing my heart out????
I think Virginia gave you some excellent advice...
I hope she continues with the business...
All I can say is you are WAY TO IMPATIENT!!!...You want things now, to happen now, your way now...this isn't going to go that way...and even IF H made the decision to try with you right NOW I don't think it would be a lasting reconnection and then you will hurt 10 times worse...I know...
I had been with H since I was 15...he left me when I was 42...so I think I had a bit more then 10 years invested into this relationship...so I KNOW how it feels to have your world turned upside down...X's 2!!!!
I agree there are a lot of positives and you should be proud of them...
However, it only takes a few negatives to make the house of cards fall....and you are treading closely...you are polarizing yourself with him...he doesn't want to travel with you...you want to...he doesn't want to spend the night with you....you want him to....he wants to make more investments....you don't want to...further more you want to control how the assets are actually divided...instead of letting him decide to keep properties vs sell because of your feelings you want them all sold!!!...I think you need to realize that your H has feelings...and not everything he is doing is EASY for him...he is not making you unhappy...you are taking care of that....H wants to keep you included in what sounds like a lucrative business and all you can do is worry IF OW will benefit from "YOUR" hard work....he is keeping a door open with you and you want to close because you want a different door open...
You are still pushing him...and if you don't stop you WILL lose him and NOT TO OW!!!
You seem to know what he feels, thinks, does....and you will snoop...and you stay all consumed in all of this...he spent a vacation with you...had sex with you...and still you push...do you think OW is pushing....or pulling???...think about that
I don't really know what else to say...I do hope your therapist can help...I will keep giving what insight I can until you tell me or show me you don't want it...
I am VERY concerned for you...I know you love your H...but I wonder if it is the "idea" of him that you love more??? and now the control is gone and you can't handle that...so you resort to manipulating...even in your DB'ing...you are still focused on getting him back instead of improving YOU...because bottom line...if you get him back and you don't improve you it will only be a matter of time...you MUST IMPROVE YOU...that is all there is to it...
Hey, Virginia! I tried emailing your gov.au address last month without a response. If you're still interested in catching up, feel free to drop me a line at: eggman@iname.com
(we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...)
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Welcome back...it seems that your trip went well. However, I'm disturbed by a couple of things...
To answer your question...no, I don't believe that he stayed in the office to sleep...you can't leave clothes that you are still wearing. That was for you to believe...
Tam...in your "mind" he ML to you...however, his actions spoke differently - turning his back, etc.,...you "felt" it as well. He had sex...with you, because you initiated it...no man will turn that down...but you want and hope to believe otherwise... This type of thinking is what distorts reality in your head from fact.
I agree with Lin 100%...you are on a short time frame to turn this around...but yet, you "dance" all around him, trying to get him to notice you...when it's in your hands to change yourself. It seems like you'll try to work on you, if he comes home, but I'm telling you he won't come home until you do...change.
Tam, forgive me, but you seem to carry on as a child...you cry until you get what you want, snoop, manipulate, asking him so many questions all the time. Now, you want to sell the business because he chooses to be with her? Tam, you have made him an unhappy man...he wants to be free of you...so he can think and breathe, without you under his foot 24/7...but you cannot do this because you feel that you are joined at the hip...My God Tam, do you allow him to use the restroom on his own? Or do you follow him there as well?
You are "SUFFOCATING HIM"...the more you want to be with him, the more you push him away...this is your marriage and you are driving it into the ground...do you get this?????????????????
It's time to grow up and be the woman that you were born to be and stop acting like a child. I'm sorry to say this, but if I was your husband, I would have already filed...you just don't understand how ugly and unattractive your behavior is to him... this is in your hands to fix and you can fix it, but you need to be an adult and see that you are the cause of him leaving... that he can't live with an overbearing, fully dependent, child. He married you as a partner for life...not an albatross around his neck.
Detach from him...let him alone...let him breathe...stop pushing to be included in everything he does or places he goes...you are annoying him to death...
You can fix this...read the whole DB book, not just certain parts like infidelity...then, you'll see the importance of the whole process in the big picture...
You need to change...no more crying, scenes, snooping, get out of this pitty party and start working on your marriage, it's been 5 months now...it's not new to you...but I've only seen just a few temporary changes...nothing permanent...it's up to you.
Yes, like Lin, I have vested more years in my marriage than you have...what other excuses can we answer for you? Did I act like you? No. Did I suck the life out of my husband? No. I gave him all the room he wanted...guess what? He came back, all on his own...
You can let go...........you don't have any other choice...if you want him back...anything else, just does not work...can you just grasp that much?
2940 - reread the section in DR about detaching. There are also some links around (probably on the Newcomers and Midlife Crisis boards) about detaching and how valuable it is as a tool to lovingly distance yourself from your spouse and their behaviour.
On the business - you need to be strategic about it. On this issue, more than any other, you need to think with your head and not your broken heart.
Write yourself a list of what the likely outcomes of each approach are
It might be something like
1. H's preferred option - splitting the properties up
Presumably under this option - you would each manage your own properties - so any work that he had to do on his portfolio he would do and work you had to do you would do.
The pro side of this is you could still collaborate; share, rather than duplicate effort if you chose to, you get access to future profit on existing and ongoing developments.
Another pro is that if you chose to, you could sell your share and cash in if you wanted to.
The best pro is you would be demonstrating a really good 180 by agreeing that he knows what he's doing.
The con side is he can share his with whoever he wants to.
2. Your option - selling everything
I wonder if this is realistic? I think at law and in reality you wouldn't be able to stipulate what H did with his share of the properties. A court would split the properties down the middle and award them to each of you and what he did with his would be entirely up to him.
It doesn't sound to me like he wants to change career. You have had enough at the moment - but realistically, what else are you going to do? Do you have a plan for another career? What would you do with your nest egg?
Pro side of this option is - you get what your broken heart wants - a disolved company and the capacity to stick it to him.
Con side - probably a less than optimal sale price on some properties, you have no business left to do with him and no opportunity to show him how you are growing and changing.
3. A compromise option - leave it as is for a period of 6 months - but start to discuss a settlement agreement with a solicitor that could be enacted at any point either of you chose to
Pros - you've got a bit of time to get your head together and you will probably capitalise on value in the market during that period.
Pro - you both have a job to do and opportunities to do them together
Pro - This OW or another one will get sick of him still working with his wife and will start to get testy about it - thus pressuring him
Con - You will have to use every ounce of will power you have to give him enough rope to go through his crisis - and that may be too difficult.
There will be lots more pros and cons that you can fill in. Just think it through. There really is no reason to sort this out right away. A divorce process usually takes a couple of years - there is plenty of time.
Have a good day. V
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Well Tam...you have success stories from me and 1210...that is more then I got when I first came here...I didn't have anyone to really give me hope...when I hit the 6 month mark I just wanted to know if it was at all possible to reconcile a marriage after that long....
My heart does break for what your going through...and I won't lay the blame 100% on you...he made poor choices as well...however, the matter of reconiliation could be 100% within your grasp...IF YOU LISTEN....1210 and I have both been down this ugly road...we have suffered the pain...yes we made mistakes but learned from them...quickly!....we made patience a priority...we focused on what we needed to do and didn't focus on rushing to get H back....I have seen what happens when "they" come home too soon...too soon for them and too soon for the "us"...it isn't pretty and the pain and betrayal feels 10X's worse....
We don't want that for you....I wish you could feel the anguish that I am feeling for you...wishing in a way that I could carry that burden for you...but I can't...ONLY YOU CAN FIX THIS!
Please think about what we are sharing with you...we know it is hard...we did it, remember?...we know it hurts, we felt it, remember?....now we want you to feel success....and success is totally in your hands...with or without H in your life....you can have success!!!
Calm yourself...focus...set short term goals...that will lead to long term goals...you CAN DO THIS!
I purposely did not call him back. I left the office around 3:15 for my massage and dinner with my friend. I saw him as I was leaving the office - he had just pulled in. He motioned for me to wait, and I waved and motioned to call me, that I had to go.