NOP, I have no intention of seeing this guy or dumping bf right now. BF and I have alot to discuss. He takes me totally for granted and I allow it. It was one of those nights that could happen to anyone in the same sitch. I absolutely miss affection in my life. I have never cheated on anyone and have no intention of starting now...I feel guilty for having kissed him. But it made me feel wanted for sure. I understand your statements completely. BF and I probably won't make it for many reasons, but I will break it off before I do anything hurtful or deceitful...
I guess we differ on the likelyhood of success if he rattles the cage by saying "oh" and the like. But you are confusing me on that issue because in one sentence you say basically that is effective and the next sentence is that MrsHD likes the silence, so... Which is it?
I’m saying that for MrsHD, just saying “oh” and staying out of the pit will not get her to come out of her cave. If she doesn’t come out, she stays in her position of power and nothing changes. She likes silence in that she does not have to hear about her issues. Silence allows her to keep avoiding. So turn up the volume.
How is he possibly going to make progress without forcing her to change her stance? She is in the driver's seat. There is no way in heck she is going to give that up until he forces her out of the car.
Agreed.
No. It's tit for tat and not going to work.
Yes, it is tit-for-tat. But so far HD has not engaged in tat-for-tat. She tits (you know what I mean) and his tat is to walk away or back down. The 180 is standing up to her and letting her understand that he has power too, and can exercise it.
I know you believe that it will and I see you describe it all the time in your own M on this board, but I doubt it would ever get HD to the loving M that he wants. That's just my take.
You are confusing two issues. I am not preaching to HD on how to get a loving marriage. I am talking about restoring balance and respect. That includes a certain amount of “fear” for one another, knowing that each person has choices and that s/he does not have to put up with an abusive situation. Or maybe that is better called respect for each other’s boundaries.
Anyway, that has nothing to do with love per se, but I don’t think love can endure without it. There is still more unfinished work in my M. Until those issues are resolved, I do not see how we can have true vulnerability and therefore intimacy and love. That part is stage 3 of the growth of my marriage.
Yes, it is tit-for-tat. But so far HD has not engaged in tat-for-tat.
That's true. He doesn't. My thinking is that it still wouldn't really help the M though.
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She tits (you know what I mean) and his tat is to walk away or back down.
Lol. Too much talk of boobies lately. It's MJ's fault. And yes, his tat is uneffective.
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The 180 is standing up to her and letting her understand that he has power too, and can exercise it.
This is where it starts to fall apart. I'm not so sure MrsHD will believe a word HD says about any of his "power." All talk and no action maybe? I don't know. It's just a hunch. She seems like the type of person who no matter what you say and how you may appear to be taking back power, she will always call the bluff. And then what? The exact opposite ends up happening, she gains even more power in the R. She has conditioned HD to do this from way back. Everytime he caves, she gains strength. That's why I'm saying a drastic approach may be the only way to go now.
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You are confusing two issues. I am not preaching to HD on how to get a loving marriage. I am talking about restoring balance and respect. That includes a certain amount of “fear” for one another, knowing that each person has choices and that s/he does not have to put up with an abusive situation. Or maybe that is better called respect for each other’s boundaries.
I'm not comfortable with separating the respect issue with the love issue in a M. I think I see your point but it may as well be a parent-child R. And thus, the obvious result: a SSM.
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Anyway, that has nothing to do with love per se, but I don’t think love can endure without it. There is still more unfinished work in my M. Until those issues are resolved, I do not see how we can have true vulnerability and therefore intimacy and love. That part is stage 3 of the growth of my marriage.
Only you can figure out how best to handle your M. I think you make a good point about VULNERABILITY though. I think that is critical to a strong intimate M, including a loving sexual R. Your harsh approach, which I understand in terms of building the respect and boundaries in your M, is lacking in enough vulnerability. You say you need to build the respect BEFORE the vulnerability can occur but I'm not so sure about that. I think they can go hand in hand and probably should. Maybe that is why you say yourM is lacking love. I cannot imagine loving someone and not being vulnerable to them. Maybe that is the "fear" piece you were talking about. Anyways, I hope you get to that vulnerable, loving stage of your M Cobra. LFL
Quote: ------------------------------------------------- BF and I probably won't make it for many reasons, but I will break it off before I do anything hurtful or deceitful... -------------------------------------------------
The thing is, from your boyfriend's perspective, kissing someone else likely is hurtful and deceitful.
If you would like to discuss your situation, I will be happy to discuss it with you, but please start a thread so that Hairdog's thread is not highjacked.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
This is where it starts to fall apart. I'm not so sure MrsHD will believe a word HD says about any of his "power." All talk and no action maybe?
Like I mentioned to Nop, I think there are several ways to wage this battle. HD needs to decide what he wants to do, but I think a full frontal confrontation (get those images out of your mind!) will not work. Plus I don’t think it best to make her even more defensive. They have been civil to one another on the surface. This is her charade. If HD wants to keep communicating in writing, which I think is important, then he can apply the pressure there and let the charade of civility continue a little longer. Eventually she will blow, but I think waging a war of steady, relentless pressure (not too strong to create a fight) might work. That is just what Nop described using in his M.
I did the same, though I wasn’t so civil at times. I don’t think each particular fight bothered my wife so much, but taken in whole, with one after the other, with no seeming end to them, they took their toll on her and she slowly began to listen a little closer to my message, try to understand what I was saying, and make changes on her end. At first, I think it was for no other reason than to get me to shut up and go away, which was fine. It allowed me to show her another side of myself if she could be cooperative. That was pressure, no doubt, from my side. It was not control however, because she could walk, but she sure felt like I was trying to control her.
Ultimately she had to face her own choice of whether to stay or go. Once I thought she made that choice, I knew she had come around to accepting my power due to her own reluctance to leave the M (but isn’t that what most “normal people already understand in an R? Duh!!)
What I had a hard time struggling with on this board is that I wanted her to commit to the marriage out of choice, and not pressure, yet without the pressure, she would not commit. Nor would she cooperate or even consider my views, because she didn’t have to. Remember that I mentioned to Heather once that faith also comes into play. I believe there was a lot of fear from her FOO that simply made it too scary for her to trust anyone, especially a man. So without trust, she kept one foot out the door, and tended to see everything from a pessimistic viewpoint, that my main objective was to control and subjugate her.
The dilemma I had is that I WAS trying to control her, at least on the surface, in order to rebalance the marriage. It is that same problem MrsCAC4 talks about. My wife heard me but she didn’t “get it.” She didn’t “get it” because she chose to keep on the blinders that she needed to maintain her defenses. So once she saw those defenses were not working for her, and that I would continue to pressure her no matter what, she had to find another way of dealing with the pressure I was putting on her. That way was to talk openly and honestly. I kept offering that carrot to her and reluctantly she began to pick it up. That was Stage 1.
So now I think we are getting comfortable with boundaries, respect for each other, holding onto ourselves, which is creating a safer environment. This is slowly building trust and respect. I think it needs more time to stew. This is stage 2.
Stage 3 will be pushing for more intimacy and vulnerability to create the emotional conditions to rebuild love, or at least that is my game plan for now. I hope this helps put into perspective what I have been doing and why, and why I am making the recommendations to HD that I have.
I must have missed the part where things took a turn for the worse again - what happened? Why do feel like the S will hit the F? I get the feeling you've gone into silent rumination mode having established some communication that was half working. I think what she is feeling peeved about is that you've gone quiet on her? Could that be right.
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But MrsHD likes the silence. It is safe for her. From her current position, she has everything to lose and nothing to gain by allowing relationship to move off center.
I disagree
I don't think she likes the silence. Silence is an abandonment issue. We've established she has big-time abandonment issues. Speaking as someone with QT as her LL (and I believe MsHD is the same - something about a convo with her BIL about what's her favourite vegetable - remember that?) and speaking as someone with her own abandonment issues, I can tell you silence absolutely is not what is comfortable for her. She LIKES the pit. She's a lawyer, she likes the cut and thrust of a heated argument not just for the feeling of power when she wins but because it involves total engagement. When HD gets in the pit with MrsHD she has his full attention. And she loves it. Maybe she feels like the only way she can get his full attention is by doing this?
Mrs Cac talked about this on Cemar's thread what made her start desiring her H was when he started TALKING to her, talking to her without the TV on, talking directly to her without being sarcastic. HD we love your humour, truly we do, but sometimes humour can be a defence. Why would MsHD lower her defences if she never feels like you lower yours?
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I agree with what you're saying and I should rephrase because that isn't exactly what I meant by silence. What I mean is that I think she wants to avoid any talk of intimate and vulnerable matters. That's why she cut off joint counseling. That's why she created this rationale of fighting against male subjugation. So she moves to a position of power and dominance, then suppresses any criticism, keeps things quiet.
You're right about her thriving on the enmeshment and the adrenaline rush, though. I agree with what your saying about attention too.
I saw you were a Gator in an earlier post. But I didn't know your H was a Buckeye. He can't be such a bad guy! I took Raven to the OSU-UM game this year so I am turning him into as much of a Buckeye as I can:)
HD,
Just trying to finish this thread by the end of the game. S. ILL. just missed both shots on that steal. Wow... Anyway I'm sitting in the hotel room waiting for my pizza and Guinness (I ran 6 miles so I earned it!) and HOPING that the OSU game will be the one televised here.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
fearless...FWIW, I'm so sick of hearing about OU or OSU here I can't stand it! Whenever there's an OU or OSU game on I hear about it at the office ALL DAY LONG! The guys (and some gals) jam the halls talking about it so you can't get through, and there's a never ending score of battling fight songs over our PA system (BTW, I'm in Tulsa). Not being from this area though, I have no school spirit attached to either...so for me, it just gets annoying LOL.
I'm not against sports by any means...but I am DEFINITELY not a fan of college football or basketball or pro football or basketball.
My husband and I are both big soccer fans though, and we both enjoy baseball and hockey as well...although when the Bulldogs (DAWGS, go Ugga!) are playing, my husband watches (he's from GA).
