I know sex is getting better for you. Does your wife... 'desire' you?
No, I wouldn’t say so, but then, I wouldn’t say she ever has. She’s too scared of rejection to let that slip out. There have been times when she seems to feel close to me, but I wouldn’t say I have ever seen desire from her. Nor do I expect to either. I have no illusions of ever having the romantic, intimate, soul-mate type of love affair with my wife… I want it and think about it often... but I’m ok where I am right now... at least for now... maybe one day.....
We still have a lot of work to do. She still holds on to a lot of her old defensive, self protective ideas, but she has learned to bite her tongue and to not control everything. She sees that life goes on and things work out ok. So that is a good foundation to build upon. She also seems to consider how I will react to things, which is a HUGE change from a few years ago... the beginnings of empathy... putting herself in my shoes... at times, though not all the time.
So I think it best to let this state just soak for a while. Let the both of us get comfortable with this new level of differentiation. She is also still new at her job and is trying to prove herself there, so she brings a lot of stress on herself. It will take a little longer for her to realize that no matter how hard she may try, things will always be there and won’t change much. She can work herself to the bone and it won’t make much difference, so better to focus on family and being happy. This is slowing coming to her. She sees some logic in this, but more time is needed.
Cobra, the only thing I'm going to say in response to this is...when I do lose interest to an extent in my marriage, be it because I'm preoccupied with other things, or I'm physically tired...what have you.
This has a lot to do with my wife’s current complaints, or should I say, her latest deflection. Remember a while back she went to the doctor to get her thyroid levels checked? Well, as I suspected, levels are fine, and well below any thresholds that would be a concern. So…. What does this mean? Ignoring the fact hat I do not think she gets enough sleep, it must mean there is something wrong with her doctor!
Ok, that’s something for her to consume herself with. She can have at it. I think the real problem is that she is getting older, does not exercise, has been generally much more sedentary over the past few years (studying for her teacher’s certification, and now teaching). So I can understand why any drive she might have is low.
But then again, she does say she gets horny at times. Her answer is to just get out her vibrator and masturbate. She will not ask for sex. Never!
I consider this "losing interest" as dropping the rope for me...in a sense it was my way of letting go of the pressure I was putting on "us", on my H. In the past year I've lost track of how many times he's stepped up when for whatever reason I've stepped back.
Sorry, I don’t see this ever happening if I dropped the rope. She goes right back into her shell. She has only recently really “gotten” it that for a man, having sex really is better than masturbating.
Oh and I'm not saying that will work for everyone either...but I also haven't seen you or HD completely drop the rope either. Dropping the rope feels too much like giving up to us HD folks...so it's very hard for us to do in order to have it really have the proper affect on our M.
You won’t ever see me drop the rope either. Like I said, she goes into her cave and pulling her back out is too much damn work. It usually takes a big fight. Better to keep her out and maintain a workable level of engagement.
her gritting her teeth - is already burned into my mind. Even the words that Cobra said in his first post today about not taking this personally, can't stop that wound from bleeding.
I can understand the pain of wanting someone so bad, but you can’t. That’s torture for sure. I’m glad Nop posted the summary steps of his marriage recovery. I’ve been meaning to ask him to outline his methodology, to link together the different advice he has been offering lately.
Here is the abreviated sequence of events:
1) I lost the anger.
2) I told MrsNOP that I would no longer live in a sexless marriage.
3) MrsNOP and I started having "just sex".
4) Emotions ran high.
5) The situation escalated when I was not satisfied with the "just sex" I was getting and we started a schedule for even more "just sex".
6) Take all of the above and put it into an emotional blender and then spend many hours and days decoding the result.
7) Eventually we began to understand and appreciate each others perspectives and needs.
8) We now make love very often (daily, sometimes more). We still occasionally have "just sex", but the gnashing of teeth is gone.
You see step 6? That is the core of where you need to go. That is the heart of the crucible, where everything comes out, both people level with each other, without pretense, and tell it exactly as it is, I have had to do this very thing many times with my wife. There is no avoiding it, IMO. The interesting thing is that EVERY TIME, we came out for the better, with some understanding and acknowledgement of each other’s needs.
Steps 1-5 are completely variable. They can be anything you want to make them, because they exist only for the purpose of getting to step 6. If you start to dance around the crucible, and feel uncomfortable dealing with step 6, then no matter how hard you work on the other steps, the marriage will never be on solid ground.
One question, though, to make sure we're on the same page here: what is it that she wants? I'm thinking she wants distance, but you seem to be saying that she wants to respect me. So, you think she'll respect me by me being disgusted with her lame offer? I hear Cobra saying, that ain't gonna work, and I tend to agree, but, as I said, I'd appreciate a clarification if I'm getting off track.
I do not think she really knows what she wants. You have asked. She says she wants to be left alone, to have a platonic sort of love. I think she truly believes that. There are lots of holes in that belief, but she doesn’t see them. So you have to look to her actions. Read the signs. We have pointed many out to you in the past. They all seem to say the same thing - that she does not want to D.
I think she is just as scared of going to step 6 as you are, and I do think that scares you. I really think you need to focus on THAT. What are you going to say to her when you get the chance. What are you going to reveal in the crucible to prove your trust in her and make yourself vulnerable? What are you going to demand (yes, demand) in return.
If you can’t demand something while in the crucible, you’ll never be able to demand it anywhere else. That doesn’t mean she will give it to you, but it is important for the both of you to hear you say it.
So if you need that mental image of her gritting her teeth to steel you for the crucible, then great. But know one thing – it is YOUR choice to require such strong medicine before gathering the strength to step into the crucible. You have the ability to change that threshold. You can decide you will move right to step 6 on much lower provocation.
She will likely see any use of logic, pleading, cajoling, whispering, or sighing as a personal attack, as pressure, as manipulation.
This is a good example of you letting her set the bar for what it takes to confront her. She reacts to anything, and pre-empts you from expressing your wishes and desires. She creates the impression that moving to step 6 is at great risk, that if you challenge her on some as minor as the “use of logic, pleading, cajoling, whispering, or sighing” then a real and direct confrontation with her will be like a nuclear war.
And yes, she asks sometimes quite frequently if "a sigh is just a sigh" or if it is my way of displaying my anger toward her. Or displaying whatever.... While there was actually a time or two or three that I actually did sigh to express exasperation with a situation, I tend to sigh now as an exercise in tension relief. I learned it from an article and it really seems to work for me. So, when she asks that question, I'm often surprised by it. "No" I answer, and quite honestly so.
And you play along with her.....
So I ask you again She has already told you that she is getting tired of all this right? So what is SHE going to do if you just keep up this level of pressure? Have you noticed that is the one issue she has nicely dodged?
Quote: ----------------------------------------------------- I'm glad Nop posted the summary steps of his marriage recovery. I've been meaning to ask him to outline his methodology, to link together the different advice he has been offering lately. -----------------------------------------------------
Cobra, I hope that you don't have the idea that I only make suggestions based on my own experience. If I have a methodology, it is to study a person and their situation, build an abstract of the relationship, then make suggestions to address the issues based on that knowledge. I believe that I have posted essentially the same thing here several times previously.
When MrsNOP and I started this whole process, the only professional advice I received was in a single post to me from Michele. She said (in a very nice way), "deal with your anger". So I did. The rest of my plan came from my idea of the most logical and direct way that I could address the problem.
While I agree that one partner often has to push hard to change the focus of a relationship, that is not always the case. There are multiple examples of different relationships from current posters. While all require action, having all the actions the same would be wrong. Furthermore, not all actions have to be painful or extremely stressful.
Not all relationships here require that the partners enter into some kind of "crucible" before there can be real change in the relationship.
My marriage was essentially dead, and needed some intense attention. That was MY marriage. While the approach I took to begin to recover our marriage may be similar to that needed by others, it is most assuredly not the only approach, and in fact, could be very damaging if misapplied.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
She has only recently really “gotten” it that for a man, having sex really is better than masturbating.
Cobra, I hope you don't believe what you are implying in this statement.
HD- Ignore my babbling. Listen to NOP. If I suggest any course of action based on assuming that we are similar (Me being a wimpy 7 and you being a funny 6) I am neglecting the very important difference that you are a man. There may be some benefit derived for you if you are able to have sex with a woman who is angry at you. The opposite holds true for me.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
She has only recently really “gotten” it that for a man, having sex really is better than masturbating.
I noticed this same statement too. What caught my eye was the generalization of men's preferences. I think there are plenty of women who have Hs that seem to prefer masturbating to sex.
This reminded me of an argument I seem to see a lot of men here using. They explain to their wives not that THEY want a certain thing in their relationship. Instead they use the "logic" of the fact that MEN in general need it. That may or may not be true but I think it can be beside the point. Is a person's need or feeling not valid IF other men or women do not feel that way? I would say no. Your feeling is valid for you and should be respected as such. Once you start down that path of justifying why you need something by dragging in what men or women need now you opened the door for them to point to the men and women who don't need it. Or you open the door to arguments about the differences in men and women. But that isn't what you really want, is it? You really want YOUR needs and feelings acknowledged.
And I am not sure where you were going Mojo but for me I would certainly say that as a woman I prefer sex
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
And I am not sure where you were going Mojo but for me I would certainly say that as a woman I prefer sex \:\)
LOL- Yes indeed. Though we could throw "getting done" in to the mix also, perhaps with a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 ration. Or what the h*ll, just give me both. F*ck the MB. I got enough of that when I was 13. Unless you count phone sex.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
