HD, I almost would ask Ms. HD why she stays with you. I asked BB why she stays with me.
If it would do any good towards BB's long term happiness, I would even write BB a profile on match.com and list her good traits. It isn't that I wanted to get rid of BB, but more that I was tired of trying to make her happy. If I can't do the job, maybe someone else can.
HD, did Ms.HD ever say what changed between when you two had sex on a regular basis and now? I keep thinking the PE, your kids, your X, and finances are some of the issues on your side of the fence. I know there are issues on her side of the fence but she has to work on those.
Is it advisable to evaluate each issue on your side of the fence "individually" and I do mean sticking to "one" topic?
I don’t have my own stuff straight, so take my comments for what you can use and drop what you think is not helpful.
Im the mean timetell Ms. HD gift sex offered with a loving heart will be accepted. BTDT
So many posts, so little time. I actually came back to the office from my C's office, just so I could catch up. Everyone's posts have been so good, and I've really gotten something from each one, albeit, not necessarily what you might have intended.
Corri, this really stood out:
Quote:
She wants to respect you. It is the biggest turn on there is. She needs to see your 'disgust' with her.
That, actually, won't be difficult because that mental image - her gritting her teeth - is already burned into my mind. Even the words that Cobra said in his first post today about not taking this personally, can't stop that wound from bleeding. I can take an Ambien to help me get to sleep, but when I wake up 3am next to her, I can't turn off the "grit my teeth". I don't see a problem with using it to prop up the emotional fortitude I need to give her what she wants.
One question, though, to make sure we're on the same page here: what is it that she wants? I'm thinking she wants distance, but you seem to be saying that she wants to respect me. So, you think she'll respect me by me being disgusted with her lame offer? I hear Cobra saying, that ain't gonna work, and I tend to agree, but, as I said, I'd appreciate a clarification if I'm getting off track.
No offense, but 'reasoning' like this will not work. Not with an LD.
No offense taken because I agree with you!! I completely agree that reasoning and logic will not work DIRECTLY to get her to want to have sex.
I am directing the reasoning and logic to getting to the CAUSE of the lack of sex. I see that as completely different.
Plus HD's wife is an attorney so I think she will respond to the reasoning and logic IF it is NOT AIMED at her. Or HD for that matter. The reasoning and logic should be directed at the problem and, to me, the key is for HD to frame the problem around something they both can want. The woman does not want sex at the moment. Forcing it or reasoning it is not what I would recommend. FWIW.
I think HD needs to stand firm in his desire of his wife and in making love to her. No need for any explanation. No need to convince. No need to bed. No need to force her against her will. This is masculine, IMHO. I am curious if HD has been able to keep up an honest desire of her. Is he able to look across the room at her while she does something and comment "You are an amazing woman and THIS is why I want to make love to you" And to especially do it when the time is not right so there is no pressure on her. Maybe whisper in her ear something to that affect. But let her know that it is HER that he desires.
At the same time, why not try to draw out why she is so shut down? Why not respect and empathize with the fact that she has lost something? Not being accusatory toward her but caring for her.
Listen I have written more than HD probably needs. I could be COMPLETELY off target and I know that I am NOT directly on target. Mostly I just hoped that I could trigger something different than what has been done before.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I would view #7 as a reclaimation effort of respect. Though Mrs. NOP has often said on this board that 'lack of respect' was never an issue for the two of you.
But as a fellow LD, when you lost the anger? And she really knew it? Probably tested it a time or two or three or four... threw a plate for good measure... and you still did not return to angry NOP?
And given your lovely manliness... your strength of character, your 'leading' your wife, while fully acknowledging her own strength of character... I would personally say that #7 proves my point. Respect turned the ship.
You and I could both say, with a fair amount of certainty, that yours and Mrs. NOPs R never deteriorated to the point that HD now finds himself in.
I completely agree with you that HD is the only one who can upset the stalemate. But I can tell you, as a woman who is just about as stubborn as they come (I'd say I'd give Mrs. HD a fair run for her money in my old days)... for HD to have sex with Mrs. HD in her mental frame of mind (teeth gritting sex)... is not something to take to bed, even to upset the stale mate. It would do lasting damage to her.
Think about Mrs. HD's father. I understand that whole thought process of 'he just wants to scratch an itch.' My xH even took me up on my offer of... fine, have sex, but I'm gritting my teeth.
No one should have that kind of sex. I would have respected him far more if he had grown some balls and said, fine, be who you are. I'm not living in an SSM. I'm leaving.
She wants to respect you. It is the biggest turn on there is. She needs to see your 'disgust' with her.
It is interesting how we all see such different things within just a few words.
I figured she purposely used the phrase "grit my teeth" to convey to you how pressured she feels and to see whether you care about her feelings. I would agree that not having sex with her gritting her teeth would be respectful to her AND to you.
Honestly HD I am not sure exactly what I intended other than to give a different view. MsHD is a lawyer like my xH so I see some similarities there. See my previous post about how I would use logic and reasoning to your advantage and not use them in a no-win situation. At the same time she is a woman so I try to empathize with how she might feel even if I have not had those feelings before.
In the end I am just a sentimental sap that would like to see most marriages work out in a healthy way for all involved. So far I have personally only seen one divorce where I agreed that it just could not work. All the others have seemed wasteful because at one point the couples were happy and compatible. These are just close friends or family I am referring to - so that is one "legitimate" divorce out of ten.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
fearless: Using logic with her is a no-win solution. She will likely see any use of logic, pleading, cajoling, whispering, or sighing as a personal attack, as pressure, as manipulation.
And yes, she asks sometimes quite frequently if "a sigh is just a sigh" or if it is my way of displaying my anger toward her. Or displaying whatever.... While there was actually a time or two or three that I actually did sigh to express exasperation with a situation, I tend to sigh now as an exercise in tension relief. I learned it from an article and it really seems to work for me. So, when she asks that question, I'm often surprised by it. "No" I answer, and quite honestly so.
Lil: except, goshdarnit...I can and do still feel desire for her. Yesterday morning, she looked downright hot to me. I'm not gonna lie - there are times when my emotions are such that she just doesn't appeal to me at all, but even with the latest volley, I can still see why I was initially attracted to her physical presence (in addition to her intellect, humor, etc....)
hd, I just posted this on my MiC thread. It's from the author's website:
"In this explosively original book, Perel explains that our cultural penchant for equality, togetherness, and absolute candor is antithetical to erotic desire for both men and women. Sexual excitement doesn't always play by the rules of good citizenship. It is politically incorrect. It thrives on power plays, unfair advantages, and the space between self and other. More exciting, playful, even poetic sex is possible, but first we must kick egalitarian ideals and emotional housekeeping out of our bedrooms."
Provocative, don't you think?
Honestly, when I try to picture you with someone else, I just see you being bored. There is something about MRS. HD's unavailability that just lights your fire.
In the world of healthy, wholesome, by-the-book sex, that would probably be seen as pathological and founded in low self-esteem.
