Still Alive IV: Hairdog

[LustForLife]

Your husband desires a clean house. While you don't. Well, can't you control your feelings to change your attitude so that maybe you will love to start cleaning?

Good question. But a little confusing. I think my feelings on the housecleaning issue are based on my belief/attitude that "He will take care of it eventually." When I was separated, I was amazed at myself and how much I cleaned. Had to do it all myself then and I did. Now that we are back together, I have slacked off again on my part. So yes, if I REALLY wanted to, I could control my thoughts and feelings on this issue. But I am still CHOOSING to slack off because well, it's easier? Lame but honest. I know this is still an area that needs work in my M.

[Burgbud]

Come on HD, look at this question. This is the KEY. What IS the answer? Could it be that you were doing any and everything but what she needed? Don't take that personal; she may not have known what she needed any more that you did.

What was the answer in your M, Fearless? Maybe HD can springboard off that...

[Cobra]

Hairdog,

Lots of déjà vu for me in that letter. Let me start out by saying that I think the whole letter is a smoke screen and that you should not take any of it to heart. It is meant to be punitive to stop you from challenging her, to restore her control and her sense of security. I believe her words are crafted from subconscious fear.

I'm wondering - do you see my participation in sex with you as part of my wifely responsibilities?

Just tell her flat out “Yes”

If so, then let's call it sex, for that's what it is. I might be able to grit my teeth and force myself to do this if it's what you need to stay married. But it is not making love, just as cleaning the house is not making love, and it certainly won't make me feel very loved or loving toward you.

This is all BS. She might legitimately feel this way at this point in time, so don’t question that. But emotions change and can change quickly, so IMO this statement has no more permanency than a few hours. She replied to your email quickly, right? That means she was probably agitated and angry, in other words, the adrenaline was pumping, she was going into battle mode. Focused her thoughts and spit out a reply in no time flat. The battle mode anger is what you are reading. Unfortunately, that is also her whole life, based on her narcissism and denial. I think you have to keep reminding yourself to look past the bluff, to look under that thick skin and see why she is responding as she does. Think of her like a case study. That will help you detach and maintain objectivity.

Yes, she actually said "grit my teeth" as something she would have to do in order to have sex with me. This mental image has pervaded my mind since reading it. I can't touch her, or be touched by her, without thinking about it. I have stopped initiating any type of physical affection - touch, kiss, hugs, etc. She, predictably, has been more affectionate, but, instead of me responding in kind, I just sort of take it.

So it worked, didn’t it? She got the desired result. You have fallen right into it. Don’t close yourself off. Remember that cartoon of Pepe LePew chasing the cat that looked like a skunk? No matter how hard the cat rebuffed him, he only say it as her words saying no but her body saying yes (well, he was reading pretty hard into that body language). But you get my point. Pepe NEVER took it personally, he just kept up the chase.

This is what I have had to do, knowing that my wife wanted me to chase so that she could push me away. I believe she somehow feels security from the act of pushing me away. She know I am there, so she is not alone, but pushing me away keeps her from having to become too vulnerable.

She closes the email with another statement about my needing to decide whether I can be happy with her as she is, an assurance that she will not change, and this: "The only hope I see is for you to change - not to make me happy, but to make yourself happy."

More BS defenses, trying to make the problem become something wrong with you, that you are broken and need to fix it or live with it. This is just a mind game. Ignore it.

I have also written a fairly lengthy response, which includes lots of hooks for her to take on tangents, but which ends up with this:
Quote:
My options seem to be:
1. Keep quiet, never bring this up again, and stay in this marriage,albeit unhappily.
2. #1, plus, take a lover and suffer the guilt that accompanies that, but stay in the marriage.
3. Take you up on your offer in your last email to have sex with you while you "grit" your teeth.
4. End the marriage.

IMO, all 4 of your responses are weak and filled with self pity. She does not play by any rules. She sets the rules as fits her needs whenever she wants to. You responses are based on the constraint she has set, so you options seem limited. That is just what she wants. She can accept the first 3 no problem. In fact, #3 is not a problem for her at all because she knows you cannot endure long with her gritting your teeth. That type of sex makes it difficult for any man to get hard. Once that happens, then she has you and can shame you into never trying again. That’s a bad game to get into.

She makes the rules, so you make the rules. I think you should tell her flat out that you do not accept any of her options and that you intend to have a loving, intimate relationship with her, sex out of love, all the things you would expect in a loving marriage. Set your constraints, then throw the ball back in her court and tell her to play by your rules.

This will piss her off because you are challenging her. But you have to. The madder she gets the more you know you are on the right path. She will feel that she is backed into a corner and will have to confront her two choice dilemma, which she wants to avoid and put on you. So make your choice – elect for a loving happy marriage, not what she proposes. Let her then answer to that.

She will do as she always does which is to deflect. Remember, her comfort zone is as things are now, to stay in limbo. You can’t make her change but you can stay in her face until it is too uncomfortable for her to stay in limbo. But as you do this, make it extremely clear that there are two choices. One is the devastating road through divorce and the other is the love and caring of marriage. Keep this in front of her.

Option #1 is, to me, a non-starter. Having tried to live this way before for longer than I care to recall, I can tell you that I can't do that anymore. Between #2 and #3, I think you actually have more at risk than I do, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on those options.
Would you rather I seek my selfish idea of love with another woman, while staying married to you, or would you rather "grit" your teeth force yourself to submit to my selfish idea of love once a week? Please let me know.

The tone in this paragraph is threatening and I think it could cause an escalation, so I would avoid it.

And yes, I know I should just strap on the balls and say this to her face, but I know from experience that a)I will never be able to keep her quiet long enough to get through one sentence, much less the entire letter; b) that she will take something I said and twist its meaning to something entirely different. It's important to me that my words are clear and that they accurately convey my meaning, and my feelings. The only way I've been able to do this with her, at least with regard to this issue, is in writing.

Agreed. Also, you have something to show her later as she starts to rewrite history.

Specifically, W tried to draw a parallel between our situation and something the Reverend at our church had said in his sermon….

IMO, this is all BS too, just another deflection to justify her defenses. She is very sensitive to power and manipulation because that is what she knows and experienced in her past. She is smart enough to recognize it and not succumb to it again, but she has swung way too far to the extreme. Typical dysfunctional self defense tactic for an aggressive personality.

The irony is that she recognizes manipulation as it applies to her but is completely blind to seeing how she does the same thing. This is why it is so important that you set strong boundaries to protect yourself. You are doing that, but boundaries will not endear her to you. I had to really raise the stakes with my wife and show her that I could and would exercise my power and ability to control every bit as much as she could. She absolutely hated it.

But I also tried to show that I wanted the marriage to work and that I was willing to compromise if she would do likewise. I would often make the first moves to lower defenses and reconcile. She NEVER initiated this. She would withdraw into her cave, batten down the hatches and prepare for D, all the while calling her friends and family to get emotional support and reassurance that I am a bad guy.

She got her own lawyer, put down her retention, but would never pull the trigger. She has now settled into believing that she stays for the sake of the kids. Fine, that’s just another self delusion IMO, but it serves the purpose for now. The important point for you is whether you think your wife will respond like this too… if she is really more bark than bite.

W said that the rev knows that he won't get people to donate or get involved with committees by being manipulative, and she's the same way - pressure and manipulative tactics just make her dig her heels in further.

Yep. My wife said and still says the same thing. But you know what? Power does work. What I had to do though was to tell her I was using power and that I would do so again, and that it was because she was doing the same. I doubt your wife believes she is using power. She probably believes she is just protecting herself against your aggression, so she is in the right and you are in the wrong.

I have since told my wife that I do not believe the carrot and stick approach is always needed, but I did so to get her to respect my boundaries. She knows full well that in the past she would directly challenge me to “do something,” to see “what I could do about it.” I told her that once she learned that lesson, I could instead move to an empathic approach in which I do for her so she can do for me, not out of power, but empathy. She is still working on this lesson, but the message seems to be working.

I think it is important that all this be made explicit and brought out in the open. That is why I think you need a good counselor. Otherwise you are going to have to bear the brunt of the confrontational work. You seem to be able to control your anger better than I, so maybe your ideas can come across better.

[MJontheMend]

Hey Scott! At least your "mental wave" will come closer to me than MJ's idea of Missouri. She never seems to get that I live over on the western side of the state. It's HP that lives near St. Louis.

That's too bad. Every time you and HP were off the BB at the same time I imagined that you were having a torrid affair. It kind of cheered me up.

But yeah, that'd be some catfight!

But you know I would win. Her *ss would be grass. If you like we can do it a little different and I'll rent a van at the airport and slap a "Sisters of Mercy Sex" decal on the side and drive up to your house. I would even do the porn nurse thing with the white platform shoes and lingerie hanging out of the white uniform. Just get the kiddies stowed away somewhere and let me know when to arrive.

[NOPkins]

Hi, Hairdog.

If you want to take the next step in the escalation (and make no mistake, you will either escalate to win the marriage or escalate to lose it), then you have to ask yourself this; Am I able to have sex with a woman that is mad at me?

If you think you can do that, then accept the "just sex" option.

It may be the only method that can force the both of you into a new phase of relational understanding. Trust me, I can assure you that having "just sex" will dredge up the real core issues in the marriage. You just have to be ready to immediately address whatever comes up, all while standing your ground.

-NOPkins-

[MJontheMend]

If you want to take the next step in the escalation (and make no mistake, you will either escalate to win the marriage or escalate to lose it), then you have to ask yourself this; Am I able to have sex with a woman that is mad at me?

I think this is excellent advice but it sure made me think "I am SO glad I am not a man!".

[fearless]

NOP,

THANK YOU. I was just writing this post to ask if I am the only one who would at least propose the option of de-escalation.


HD,
You thought about an e-mail to her that says:

My options seem to be:
1. Keep quiet, never bring this up again, and stay in this marriage,albeit unhappily.
2. #1, plus, take a lover and suffer the guilt that accompanies that, but stay in the marriage.
3. Take you up on your offer in your last email to have sex with you while you "grit" your teeth.
4. End the marriage.


I just reread and saw that you considered this in your response.

Why put your options out there for her and why are you escalating this situation to an immediate win/lose proposition? This looks (I am not saying that you mean it this way) like you are making this her decision in a passive-aggressive way or that you are threatening her with divorce immediately. Take a step back and take ownership of this decision and decide whether you are ready, willing and able to make this decision immediately. If so, then I guess go for it. (Edited to add - meaning take NOPs advice and decide on option #3 right now.) If not, why not keep the focus on specific less volatile issues which FEED the main issue.

Just my humble opinion

[Burgbud]

THANK YOU. I was just writing this post to ask if I am the only one who would at least propose the option of de-escalation.

I didn't get the impression that NOP was proposing de-escalation.

Hairdog's been in a state of de-escalation for a long, long time with less than optimal results. My take is that you're asking him to go right back to where he's always been.

[Martelo]

My options seem to be:
1. Keep quiet, never bring this up again, and stay in this marriage,albeit unhappily.
2. #1, plus, take a lover and suffer the guilt that accompanies that, but stay in the marriage.
3. Take you up on your offer in your last email to have sex with you while you "grit" your teeth.
4. End the marriage.

Hd with all my heart I beg that you do not take #3 you are worth so much more
than someone just tolerating your penis inside them, she is offering you the worst
kind of sex possible.

[sat567]

Cobra - I enjoyed your post because it helped put things in perspective. Thanks.
Nop, fearless - this is actually my current mode of thinking on the issue. And fearless, you're right - it does look like a p/a way of putting the decision on her. (Note: my initial email had language more like, "...so you decide - #2 or #3.")

So, are you envisioning me just basically saying "time to grit your teeth, honey, 'cause here I am," or an email saying, "please be ready, tonight, at or about 9pm, as I choose to take you up on your offer to have sex to save the marriage"?

Hairdog