Just wanted to update on my sitch. I ended up sending an email to my W in which I mentioned her statement that I had a choice to make regarding whether I could be happy with her as she is, with what she is willing to do. (The "choice" being, pretty clearly, to either be happy, or move on). I responded with the question, "what are you willing to do with regard to making love with me?"
It took me a week to write and re-write my email. She sent a lengthy response within an hour of receiving my email. This response lacked the focus of her earlier one, going off on a tangent regarding cleaning,
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Is it that if I agree to do something I really don't want to do for you, that you will then believe I love you? Is this about you cleaning, which you obviously would prefer not to do, and having me do something for you in exchange?
She assured me that cleaning was not her 'love language' (and she put it in quotes, which actually gave me the sense that she was mocking the whole concept of LL, but I guess that's beside the point). And, just to clarify, it's not that I think that cleaning or Acts of Service in general is her love language. Rather, her "list" of what made her happy contained "follow through on agreements". I clean because I agreed to do it, and I have followed through on this agreement because she indicated that such follow through makes her "happy." It's a distinction that may be subtle, but noteworthy nevertheless.
And then, this:
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I'm wondering - do you see my participation in sex with you as part of my wifely responsibilities? If so, then let's call it sex, for that's what it is. I might be able to grit my teeth and force myself to do this if it's what you need to stay married. But it is not making love, just as cleaning the house is not making love, and it certainly won't make me feel very loved or loving toward you.
Yes, she actually said "grit my teeth" as something she would have to do in order to have sex with me. This mental image has pervaded my mind since reading it. I can't touch her, or be touched by her, without thinking about it. I have stopped initiating any type of physical affection - touch, kiss, hugs, etc. She, predictably, has been more affectionate, but, instead of me responding in kind, I just sort of take it.
She closes the email with another statement about my needing to decide whether I can be happy with her as she is, an assurance that she will not change, and this: "The only hope I see is for you to change - not to make me happy, but to make yourself happy."
My response to her is a work in progress. Part of me wants to just respond, "Thanks for the information. Now that I have your answer to my question, I can make an informed choice." And let that hang for a while.
I have also written a fairly lengthy response, which includes lots of hooks for her to take on tangents, but which ends up with this:
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My options seem to be: 1. Keep quiet, never bring this up again, and stay in this marriage,albeit unhappily. 2. #1, plus, take a lover and suffer the guilt that accompanies that, but stay in the marriage. 3. Take you up on your offer in your last email to have sex with you while you "grit" your teeth. 4. End the marriage.
We've discussed before about how DD5 changes the dynamics of these kinds of decisions. I think that the emotional and financial backlash to her which would result from a divorce is huge and, for me, makes it imperative that I consider all possible options short of divorce. Option #1 is, to me, a non-starter. Having tried to live this way before for longer than I care to recall, I can tell you that I can't do that anymore. Between #2 and #3, I think you actually have more at risk than I do, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on those options. Would you rather I seek my selfish idea of love with another woman, while staying married to you, or would you rather "grit" your teeth force yourself to submit to my selfish idea of love once a week? Please let me know.
And yes, I know I should just strap on the balls and say this to her face, but I know from experience that a)I will never be able to keep her quiet long enough to get through one sentence, much less the entire letter; b) that she will take something I said and twist its meaning to something entirely different. It's important to me that my words are clear and that they accurately convey my meaning, and my feelings. The only way I've been able to do this with her, at least with regard to this issue, is in writing.
How have things been going around Chez Hairdog? Besides the weird affection dynamic, they've been pretty normal. Once, my W tried to get into it a discussion of the issue with me, but we were in the car with DD5, and I didn't respond because I don't think it's appropriate to discuss the issue in front of her, especially considering the fact that I knew it would descend into argument pretty quickly. Specifically, W tried to draw a parallel between our situation and something the Reverend at our church had said in his sermon. It's fund raising time, and he had said "I'd love for you to give half your income to the church, but I won't ask you to do that. I'd love for you to get involved in two or three committees, but I won't guilt-trip you into it." W said that the rev knows that he won't get people to donate or get involved with committees by being manipulative, and she's the same way - pressure and manipulative tactics just make her dig her heels in further.
Besides being insulted that she considers my emails as "manipulative", the two situations are really not even close to each other. The rev knows that people will donate because, historically, they have always met their fundraising goals. I know, historically, that silent hope will not achieve any measure of "success". (Plus, it's pretty safe for the rev to say all this because, while "he" doesn't ask for funds or serve on committees, he's definitely delegated this responsibility to others). Also, if the church faced a crisis, and he got up there and gave a heart felt plea for help, the congregation would come through with flying colors. My heart felt pleas are deemed "manipulative."
Despite all this, I remain in fairly good spirits, due, at least in part to last weekend's victorious Kansas Jayhawks games. If they lose this weekend, however, I think Chez Hairdog will be a dark and unhappy place.
I'm really sorry that this is how your wife has responded.
Why do you feel you need to explain ANYTHING to her? Or to justify to her (or to us) that the reverend's statements are ANYTHING AT ALL like your situation?
"Grit her teeth", good god. I think you should respond with a terse "Thank you -- that helps me understand. I'm really sorry you feel this way. -- Hairdog".
And then let her wonder where your head & heart are at. She is going to seek some add'l affection with you, and she's going to seek your response, so she can "a", debate it, and "b" hopefully draw some comfort from it. I wouldn't give her that reassurance.
HDog... I am thinking you should respond to her with something simple, so as to avoid her ability to distract. How about asking here, " Why does sex feel like a chore to you, the equivalent of doing laundry? I'd like to understand."
BTW, I also find that written communication works best for me. I am down to the file card system, where we can talk face to face, but I keep a file card with me to stay on point.
Some big man-hugs for you man, you sound like you could use a few. I understand how a "just grit my teeth" can really let the air out of your tires. Who'd want to ML with someone knowing that person is gritting their teeth waiting for it to be over. Sounds more or less like the definition of rape to me. If she's going to act like it is when it isn't, then why ever take a no from her, just do it whenever you have the urge whether she wants it or not (maybe that's what she secretly wants, I seem to recall you mentioning she got horny watching some movie where the Marines were taking what they wanted)
I'm with Choc here, I think a simple "Thanks for letting me know how you really feel. I'm really sorry you feel this way" and leave it at that. It sounds like it is time for you to start seriously rethinking your options.
I'm wondering - do you see my participation in sex with you as part of my wifely responsibilities? If so, then let's call it sex, for that's what it is. I might be able to grit my teeth and force myself to do this if it's what you need to stay married. But it is not making love, just as cleaning the house is not making love, and it certainly won't make me feel very loved or loving toward you.
HD, the way she put this really sucks. I mean REALLY sucks, but the innate optimist in me sees an opening. It sounds to me like she is saying that if you regard it as "wifely duty" then it is just sex, not making love. Would a discussion regarding what she would perceive as making love be possible? I know you are hurting. I know it may not be possible to have this conversation with her now. It does sound like an avenue for discussion though.
----------- Balto, who (stealing HairDog's penchant for sig lines) always sees the positive in everyone's relationship but his own.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
I am so sorry. That is an incredibly crappy response. What about a return response on this order:
I do not consider sex to be a wifely duty nor a husbandly duty. However, I do consider it to be a sign of a functioning marriage and in a functioning marriage it will take the form of making love. I appreciate knowing where you stand on this and I will take it under advisement.
I do consider it to be a sign of a functioning marriage and in a functioning marriage it will take the form of making love.
Am I the only one who agrees with MrsHD that AT THIS POINT it would not be "making love" with HD? I just don't understand why any of us would think that with the type of interactions and quite brutal words exchanged between them (gritting teeth etc)that it would be even possible at this point to start making love. Jumping the gun it seems. They hardly having what most poeple would call a loving R. It not functional on any level that is making them happy as a couple. So just like MrsHD says she is going to dig in her heels the more HD pushes the sex issue. How about working on the resentments and lack of respect for each other first? LFL
Balto: I imagine her writing the words "wifely responsibilities" with a derisive sneer on her face. This is a big issue for her. This is where I think she refuses to see me as anything more than an icon of male domination over females, and that it's her responsibility to resist resist resist. This is the line where, to her, she can finally prove to herself that the feminist dogma she's been reading and regurgitating all these years, finally comes into practice. She is a sister, and all her sisters are watching her, nodding their heads approvingly. She may already see that success will come either in my total submission, or a divorce decree that she can show to her sisters as proof that males only see females as life support systems for vaginas.
That's harsh, but I think this is a large contribution to the current impasse. Oh sure, there's also the safety she feels in not opening herself up, both physically and emotionally, to another person. But it's all tied together in the gordian knot of feminism (and, to those who consider themselves feminists, you know that the kind of feminism I'm talking about here bears no more resemblance to real feminism, then your shoe collection bears to that of Imelda Marcos).
I'm seeing my Counselor this afternoon, and he has been earning his keep lately, during this time of crisis.
I imagine her writing the words "wifely responsibilities" with a derisive sneer on her face. This is a big issue for her. This is where I think she refuses to see me as anything more than an icon of male domination over females, and that it's her responsibility to resist resist resist. This is the line where, to her, she can finally prove to herself that the feminist dogma she's been reading and regurgitating all these years, finally comes into practice. She is a sister, and all her sisters are watching her, nodding their heads approvingly. She may already see that success will come either in my total submission, or a divorce decree that she can show to her sisters as proof that males only see females as life support systems for vaginas.
Just from what you've told us about her over the years, HD, I honestly don't see her changing any of that, short of "religious conversion." It is her core belief system, no less.
I just don't understand why any of us would think that with the type of interactions and quite brutal words exchanged between them (gritting teeth etc)that it would be even possible at this point to start making love.
I would challenge you to find anything remotely brutal about any of the words I've exchanged with her. While I agree that "making love" is not possible right now, this has always been about me letting her know what I want and why I want it. Her flailings are her reactions to my calm statements - and they are entirely her responsibility.
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How about working on the resentments and lack of respect for each other first?
That's what were getting at, don't you think? Do I expect to "make love" anytime soon? No. This is the crucible. This is where the hard work happens.
