Journey of a Happy Heart 2

[princess_nic]

Oh yes, he told me he's proud of the way I've acted through all this!

[ACJ]

Oh yes, he told me he's proud of the way I've acted through all this!

So he has noticed all the changes you have made. Drop the rope now Nicola place all your efforts taking care of you and those two lovely children of yours. Let H wallow in his own mud for a while.

[whitelight]

Nicola,

It's not you. It's him. And he hasn't gotten the new tools to have a sucessful R, cause if he did, he would look at himself and fix this with you.

He says one thing and then he says another like trying on hats in a store.


Either he's in mlc or he's a narcissist, but either way, he is definitly not healthy or right in the head. That doesn't mean that he can't be charming or evoke love in another, it just means that he can't love. He may pretend for awhile with this new chica, but as soon as he's really got her, his true colors will shine through.

I'm so sorry for your struggle and your pain. You didn't deserve this.

[kml]

check out http://www.wife.com for financial info - I think they have some good stuff on divorcing. And think twice in this falling real estate market before trading things like retirement funds for housing equity that may evaporate.

Ellie

[Jeff223]

Nicola, you do a wonderful job putting words to feelings. I feel the same way in my life as you do and I am at the same point. It is difficult, so difficult. No, they are not monsters. And yes we still love. But if we are no longer right for them, and that says nothing against us b/c that is their decision, how can they be right for us?

We are moving forward nicola and that is what is important. Where it all will lead is anyone's guess. All we can do is to trust in something bigger than we are.

Last thing - don't feel that you have quit. You have done just the opposite.

[I_Still_Love_Him]

((((Nicola))),

maybe I'm wrong and it really is all about me.

You have to know by now, it is NOT all about you. Don't you dare go back there.

He has always shown some traits of the "soma" narcisist, who uses sex to get women. He has always been very flirtatious and gone from woman to woman (till me, which lasted 16 yrs, or 14 if you include the A he had at the end).

This sounds so much like my H. You and I wanted to believe that our Hs were capable of real love. They are not, at least not now. They are still acting like teenagers.

My H is high-achieving, yet felt like a fraude and was constantly afraid of losing his job, or thinking that others were out to get him. He was on meds for anxiety.

Nicola, this is so scary how similar our Hs are. My H's goal is to climb the corporate ladder yet he seems to piss a lot of people off and always talks about being afraid he will be let go. Med? Of course. Fraud? In my H's psychology assessment paper he said he was afraid that people would find out that he is a fraud. I never understood this. Anyways, sorry to hijack about my H but I just want to demonstrate to you that there are similarities with our Hs and they have both decided to take the same road. Again, not about YOU, not YOUR fault. Your H is so messed up.

He told me at one point shortly after he left that he doesn't know how to love, there's something really messed up inside him, he doesn't feel empathy. He said three months ago the same thing: he can't be in an intimate R b/c he can't share himself, there's something very messed up about him. Then, w/in a couple of weeks, he was dating someone knew (w/o telling me until I found out a few days ago). When I asked him about everything he'd said, he told me, "It changed."

Your H is right about one thing he doesn't know how to love and doesn't know WTH he's talking about It changed because nothing has changed.

Whoever and whatever he is right now, it's not for me.

You are right, Sweetie. You deserve so much more and he could be but he isn't right for you right now.

I do believe he still loves you but it is buried so deep with all the garbage. You have taken so much from him and never think that you failed him. HE FAILED YOU AND YOUR KIDS.

Love to you,
ISLH

[Rollercoasterider]

Okay Nicola,

I've read through your thread. I printed it off Thursday and made notes. Most of my comments will be from that point...before there were responses through Thursday. But I have also tried to keep up reading and should add comments to that also. I actually began writing this on Friday...and then company came that evening...so sorry, but it's been a busy weekend.

So the first thing is perhaps a disclaimer.
You are considering standing down. And yet you called on me...probably the most adamant and determined Stander on the board.
I try to add that there are no guarantees. I am concerned that I will be too harsh, but you are familiar with my beliefs...I have made public statements about such things on my post...which side not so much that I choose to advise, but that I am best advising. Perhaps that was a reason you called on me.

It is not weak to stand down.
No one, not even I will feel less of you.
But even so, do not expect me to jump on the wagon with most other posters.
I cheer Standing Up.

So let's start with your own cycling and inconsistencies.
You are considering Standing down and yet...

I am worried that once it is over with, he will want to go ahead with a D.

On a positive note, once it is over with, he may feel free to re-engage in our R.

Not good news--it is over for me... H is dating the woman he "ran into" ... He still refuses to give it a try...at this point, it's the last straw.

So much speaks for itself thus far. But I want to point out that if he is refusing to give it a try the flip is that you have either asked him to give it a try or are wishing he would without asking/letting him know. Of course he refuses...THIS IS MLC. Please stop doubting yourself in that...and all other respects.

I do have a lot to offer another man. I want to be married again

I, OTOH, really don't want to be married anymore.

You know, I'm worried that he has really changed, that he really will be a wonderful man to this woman, or to another one.

He has changed...right now it hasn't got to the better...it will. BUT you admit he has changed and then use that to feel the problem is you. If he can be nice to anyone but you, you must be the problem. A decent person is nice to everyone. You are twisting everything to fit your personal feelings of low worth.

I still think we have the potential to be happy and healthy together.

He may indeed have found someone with whom he can be happy... I only wish it could be us.

I_Still_Love_Him: What is it with the MLCer with not wanting to be nice to the LBS and at least treat us like they would their friend.

This is not about being nice or not nice..in MLC that is irrelevant.

I_Still_Love_Him: I think that they are afraid to be nice to us as those loving feelings may just rise to the surface again

Very true...

I also mentioned that I find it really hurtful that he looks at me with such cold eyes and acts so cold around me. He said he does it so as not to give me false signals, not b/c he hates me.

And your response to that comment was to wonder if it is MLC. To me that comment is additional evidence of MLC. He is directly telling you that he has to make an effort . If there is a deliberate effort toward such a thing...in these instances it is a clue that he is doing something against his feelings. He doesn't want to be mean. He's more likely martyring himself...she will be better off without me because I'm no good.

Really, I think it has to be finished for my own self-respect. I also thought he was reconnecting. I don't know what happened.

What happenend is that they reconnect in stages. They begin and retreat. Sometimes it works and others it doesn't...ie they retreat only a little or totally.

But right now your self-esteem is suffering more than it had been. Have you talked to your Dcotor to check on your anti-depressants? Have you changed or gone off of them? Your clinical depression is not helping the situation right now, and it could be what is talking.

I've skimmed through some old threads...those on the MLC board since the beginning.

Sometime early last year I warned you about not having high expectaions that this was at the tail end. You reassured me that it was merely the tail end of one stage --Repaly I believe--that you were talking about. But as a skimmed your posts you said he'd been in Replay a a year, and a later post--but later may have been minutes or months...but the next one I skimmed, you said he'd been in Replay for 3-4 years.

But here is something you posted only a few months ago in November.

Just want to add that the reason I didn't move here earlier was that I kept hoping it would be over soon, but after 15 months, I've finally admitted to myself that I've probably got at least another 1/2 year to go.

Okay... the point I wanted to show was that you actually had higher hopes than were called for that this would be resolved in a certain time frame...I hadn't even noticed that final clause about half a year, and that half a year comment is evidence that you are still putting timeline of expectations on this crisis.

I understand if you have a personal limiting timeline...and half a year from those quotes will is only two months away. But that isn't what they seemed to be saying...they were not your limits, but an expectation time for further reconciliation progress. Just before that post you said...

Things appear to be progressing, but it is painfully slow going. I asked him out a couple of weeks ago, but he refused, saying he's more comfortable doing things as a family. I am very fed up at times, but am not ready to end it.

Painfully slow is MLC typical. I'm going to go back now and bring a quote from Happy_Again as Finally_Free.

So how would I take steps forward without giving her false hope? I do not want to hurt her but I am still so unsure. I did call my kids last night and asked to speak to my wife.
She seemed really happy to hear from me, maybe too happy and it scared me. I don't want to get sucked back in again...I had to end the call I suddenly got to feeling really anxious and made an excuse to get off of the phone.

So what is the message in this? He didn't want to give her false hopes because he wants to try...but isn't yet sure of things. That makes sense. But then we get to the next part...when she seemed not mereley happy, but hapy to hear from him...he became scared. He sensed her excitement...evidence of Hopes.

Over the years of this crisis you have often felt higher than zero expectations....Retrouvaille the first weekend after registering. The higher the expectations (notice I do not use the word Hope/Hopes, those can be high if they are high for the END result) the greatere a potential crash when the expecations are not realized. Expectaions are time-line oriented, Hopes are not.

You claimed to have low expectations--for each moment by moment phase, and yet you stayed at Newcomers for over a year--and admitted it was because you thought this would be resolved quickly.

This does not count the year that passed before you registered in Aug 2005--divorce talk was present in 2004. Perhaps you wer ethinkin it would pass quickly from those points because so much time had already gone by.

That is why what Jim Conway has said is so important.

The tunnel can be as long or short as people want. It can be shortened by working on the process or lengthened by denial.

You need to come to place where you Accept this process. You are cycling yourself by instead, trying to accept that it is you that are the problem, and/or that this is not really MLC.

This crisis is not your fault
It is not about you. You just happen to be the main target in the cross fire.
You could not prevent this and you cannot fix him. He is not broken, he is going through midlife at CRISIS levels. He had issues when your daughter was born also...what this shows is that he has problems with life transitions. There are many oportunities in life to resolve these issues and reintegrate oneself. MLCers have probably had issues at other crucial transitions. They may have been able to sweep them away and go on withut resolving the problems. But each tranasition will then become more of a crisis. His problems earlier in your marriage are not evidence that he is just this way.


You have been to counseling with and without your MLCer. You have felt progress on numerous occasions. Could it be that you have seemed so expectant to your MLCer...as Finally_Free's wife seemed happy to speak to him...that he retreated due to his own fear.

The idea is to be happy in yourself rather than happy because he has shown a sign of progression. Do this to the point that when he does show progress you are neutral rather than happy or sad. Oh...that's nice dear.
After the crisis an MLCer may have different ideas of what would have worked...you should have told me this and that. But he is unaware that had you done those things he would have retreated...the comments about what you should have done are coming from someone outside of MLC, the new person no longer in the fog. Sweetheart (though I'm not saying he is out) has stated things about what I should have done and he would have been home in moments...my response (internal) was HA! He would have turned and ran had I done whatever he suggested.

Happy_Again is no longer Finally_Free, and notice from his new threads that he doesn't remember a lot of what went on...and time was fuzzy. So let's say you are together later...he may feel you should have done things differently...but that will be the new rational person speaking.

Be cordial, be happy in yourself...almost so that he can see he is outside of it...because he will want to be inside of it. You can casually invite him to join, but when you show him that you have expectations, he feels pressured. This doesn't mean you are pressuring...he is feeling it. He can sense that you are happy because of what he is showing. He is still to fragile to withstand that burden...clearly since he retreats again. And this sends you...or any LBS...into a crash.

From November 2006

I know H likes me, and now I know he loves me, at least as much as he can. I know that he WANTS to be "normal; he feels like there is something wrong with him for not being able to be intimate and commit. However, he is starting to think that this is who he is, and he must accept that.

Sweetie, you of all people should recognize that last statement as the Hopeless stage of Depression...the lowest of the low. "I'm bad, so I might as well live with it because there is nothing I can do to change it." He sees no end in sight, no way out and this is his lot in life. Well, I'm gonna tell ya, we all choose our lots in life.

You recently asked this question on my thread...the last week of January. I want to apologize for not getting back to you. The board shutdown followed and then I was busy with jury duty.

I have a question for your positive thinking. You wrote a post on Hope's thread about it, and also mentioned that, of coure, there's no way to know if Hope's H will return or not. One thing I am struggling with is this:

How to I remain hopeful and think positive, yet remain unattached to the outcome? Shouldn't I be visualising and affirming H and me together in a healthy M? I'm really stuck on this and would appreciate your input.

Just wanted to mention something to add to the above:

I keep getting a very strong picture of H and me together and happy, happier than we've ever been. This happens frequently and is often unbidden. Is this just denial? Or does it mean it's my true heart's desire or what? A knowing? I know you can't know for sure, but wondering what your take it on it.

That is a tough question...because for me it felt easy because I had the KNOWING which helped. But then, maybe many of you have those and simply doubt or are not ina state where the messaage gets through.

In the beginning I consciously said affirmations...out loud often. I wrote them down and practiced. It was a lot of work and it took energy away frm other things.

But it was still important. I think I probably stopped making deliberate affirmations when they became natural within my head. I also didn't need to use them as self-convincers because I was already convinved. The prupose was not only as self-convincing, but that reason no longer applied.

The tough part is remaining unattached to the outcome.

For me the dilemma in that is how do you remain unattached and yet believe in it completely?

Was I unattached? I would usually say No...but perhaps I am confusing my comlpete belief in the outcome with being attached to it.

What I didn't do was worry...and perhaps that is where the attachment would reveal itself. Supposing I wasn't attached...I didn't worry that he would stay away and we would eventually divorce. Oh aure, I had littlte niggling doubts in the beginning...silly ones that I knew were silly. God gave me my KNOWING to trick me...I can release worry and become strong...but really, Sweetheart isn't coming home. I knew it was not how God works...but my mind still went there, and I told my counselor about it--in a laughing way. I acknowledged it by telling her...this probably helped me to not think more on it to manifest it into reality.

There are different answers to your question. For YOU, I feel you need to drop the rope that is your relationship...hey, that old relationship is dead anyway. Focus on yourself and being happy within yourself and ANY life you have.

MNake your motivations selfmotivations rather than relationship- motivations. That is, be happy within yourself for its own purpose rather than as a manipulative means to get your MLCers to progress or become curious about you. Trust that those things will ALSO happen...but they are secondary.

If you would like you can create affirmations about the two of you being together...but I am not recmmending you do such things...you need to put your energy into you.

Which brings me to your spontaneous internal images of the two of you together and happy. You describe these as unbidden, and then go on to ask if it is denial, your heart's desire a KNOWING...

Regarding denial: If these images are truly unbidden, they are not denial.

You are tired. You have had a rocky marriage with separate periods of crisis. You stated bomb drop was August 2005...but there was also divorce talk in 2004. I personally believe those images are your true desire...and thus they may be a KNOWING. But as you pointed out...I cannot know.

You are talking legal separation and divorce...sounds like you are choosing the fomrer. Do that if you must...especially if you must do it for finances and such.

But you are not ready to say this is over. Yes, you've been doing this for a long time...and yet it seems clear to me you are not ready. Patti/MTN and MEA were ready when they made their choices. They DB'd there butts off, and came out strong in their decisions..and thus even as a Stander I tried to stop encouraging they Stand. I do not feel that with you.

You feel defeated, frustrated and just plain tired. But deep down you still want your marriage...as a good marriage.

And the excuse that your marriage may not have been good ever or for years...isn't enough for me. I can show my marraige in that light too...though I don't see it that way. I can show my childhood that way without lieing...though I have never seen it that way.

Up until MLC I lived in fear of being jobless because every time I was unemployed Sweetheart would treat me as though I wer a child and should be at home with my parents...I was there responsibility and they should takle care of me. Now he didn't do this immediately after lsoing a job...he understood when my company was bought out and shut down and lapced no balme...but when I didn't have a job passed the average search time...he could get mean. I was bad, I was a person who was just not cut out for work--and thye awful thing was he didn't say that to be mean, he was worried about it and meant it. I was too this or not enough that. I lived in fear that if I lost a job he would fly...though he had not. His Brohter and SIL finally caught on...years ago they talked to us for several hours as counselors. I was not working and though it takes a lot to get mme depressed, Sweetheart's constant berating was having an effect. Then they noticed that HE perked up and seemed fine with me AS SOON AS I GOT A REAL JOB. They pointed this out to me recently...in the contecxt of "Oh, it's not her, it's him."

When I spoke with my pastor last December a lot of his phrases began with "You mean to tell me..." and his eyes were wide as he said it. I made the money, I carried the benefits and I carried the burden...and Sweetheart expected it...when I failed, he kicked me while I was down. The only time he didn't do that (regarding employment) was in this crisis--probably because he knew that I lost my last job BECAUSE of the crisis.

There are many marriages that are not 'good,' and have not been for many years. I believe they can be made good...sure no guarantees, but I believe most problems are resolvable.

So let's look at your NPD questions. What I am doing is not answering about NPD...it's not my knowlexge area. My coments are about what you said to him...

The format was you told him how you have imrpoved or changed or thought something through, and then asked him how he felt about taht or how he had done those things.

Example

Me: Sometimes I feel really sad that I couldn't be the wife you needed. Do you? That you couldn't be the H I neeeded?
H: No. I am who I am; you are who you are. We didn't have the tools we needed at the time [true--but that doesn't make you sad??]

Me: I also feel guilty about some of the things I did, and I wish I could change them. Do you feel like that?
H: No. I don't like to feel guilty, so I just don't think about anything that might make me feel that way.

Okay, questions are dangerous...and answers given by MLCers are not anything a person should believe. First, these questions need to be reserved for the confines of a therapy session.
Make statements rather than questions. You were fine stating your half...but he felt cornered when you requested an anwer from him about his feelings, guilt, behaviour etc. When cornered he will answer in a way that is meant to stop you from doing what you are doing...badgering him.

I don't see NPD...I don't se anything for or against it because of the context in which you asked the questions. His answers also exhibit more of the Depressive Hopelessness I talked about earlier. This is his lot in life, so he might as well deal with it...since he is powerless to change it.

You are reading too much into his answers. He gave you answers that he knew you would not like. He gave answers that exhibit how dead he feels inside. He gave answers that show he is lost and not yet capable of handling the burden of his guilt.

And yet he complimented you on how you have handled the last few years. Good...it means he is seeing you as strong. Strength is an attractive force. But don't get all wound up in that...be strong for yourself.

Sweetie, you need a break. You are spinning right now and you need to get your SELF back...however you feel you must. SO if that means Standing Down...then do it.
But from your posts, I do not feel that you should because it is not what you want. But to continue perhaps not Standing...but keeping yourself open to the possibility of reconciliation in the future...you need to take a break and determine what is important in your life. Right now you ar enot in condition to make life-changing decisions. Recharge and focus on yourself.

Move on. That is when the MLCer turns back. Move on for yourself and just expect him to check you out.

HUGS,
RCR

[princess_nic]

My dear friends, thank you for your continued support.

RCR, my goodness! You went to a lot of trouble over this! Thank you.

Yes, it is interesting, isn't it, that in this time of terrible crisis, I turned to you, knowing that you would likely encourage me to Stand. I guess that shows more of what I feel than anything else. Also, you are the one who, I think, knows most about MLC, and I've had such doubts that it is, indeed, MLC.

But I want to point out that if he is refusing to give it a try the flip is that you have either asked him to give it a try or are wishing he would without asking/letting him know. Of course he refuses...THIS IS MLC. Please stop doubting yourself in that...and all other respects.

Yes, I did ask him. Yesterday, I truly felt that all was lost. I am still feeling that today. I am really, finally grieving my M. That is why I did the big NO-NO of initiating R-talk. I figured I had nothing to lose. Whenever I say I don't understand, he just says, "I know you don't."

He has changed...right now it hasn't got to the better...it will. BUT you admit he has changed and then use that to feel the problem is you. If he can be nice to anyone but you, you must be the problem. A decent person is nice to everyone. You are twisting everything to fit your personal feelings of low worth.

But isn't a decent person nice to everyone? Actually, he IS nice to me. He just doesn't want to be with me. He has noticed my changes, and he says it's "phenomenal" that I've been able to do that, but...it's over for us.

Quote:
I still think we have the potential to be happy and healthy together.
Quote:
He may indeed have found someone with whom he can be happy... I only wish it could be us.

You quoted this but didn't comment!

And your response to that comment was to wonder if it is MLC. To me that comment is additional evidence of MLC. He is directly telling you that he has to make an effort . If there is a deliberate effort toward such a thing...in these instances it is a clue that he is doing something against his feelings. He doesn't want to be mean. He's more likely martyring himself...she will be better off without me because I'm no good.

That is a good point. I wonder b/c he is actually, in a strange way, trying to be nice to me, unlike so many of the MLCers here who just spew horribly. Maybe he is just a WAH, who doesn't want to hurt me, but just doesn't love me anymore. Is that not a possibility?

But right now your self-esteem is suffering more than it had been. Have you talked to your Dcotor to check on your anti-depressants? Have you changed or gone off of them? Your clinical depression is not helping the situation right now, and it could be what is talking.

Nothing has changed. I was actually doing very well emotionally before this. I've just dropped like a stone.

Sometime early last year I warned you about not having high expectaions that this was at the tail end. You reassured me that it was merely the tail end of one stage --Repaly I believe--that you were talking about. But as a skimmed your posts you said he'd been in Replay a a year, and a later post--but later may have been minutes or months...but the next one I skimmed, you said he'd been in Replay for 3-4 years.

I'm really not sure. It's so hard to remember. He was in a depression, I think, for a couple of years before replay started. Replay started in Aug 04 or earlier, I'm really not sure.

Okay... the point I wanted to show was that you actually had higher hopes than were called for that this would be resolved in a certain time frame...I hadn't even noticed that final clause about half a year, and that half a year comment is evidence that you are still putting timeline of expectations on this crisis.

Yes, that's true. You also comment that it is often slow, but this really seems slower than most. I mean, if it started a minimum of three years ago, shouldn't it be nearing the end???

You need to come to place where you Accept this process. You are cycling yourself by instead, trying to accept that it is you that are the problem, and/or that this is not really MLC.

This crisis is not your fault
It is not about you. You just happen to be the main target in the cross fire.
You could not prevent this and you cannot fix him. He is not broken, he is going through midlife at CRISIS levels. He had issues when your daughter was born also...what this shows is that he has problems with life transitions. There are many oportunities in life to resolve these issues and reintegrate oneself. MLCers have probably had issues at other crucial transitions. They may have been able to sweep them away and go on withut resolving the problems. But each tranasition will then become more of a crisis. His problems earlier in your marriage are not evidence that he is just this way.

Thank you, yes, this is right. I never thought of it that way, with the birth being a transition.

Could it be that you have seemed so expectant to your MLCer...as Finally_Free's wife seemed happy to speak to him...that he retreated due to his own fear.

Could be. I haven't said anything (till yesterday), but it's possible he could tell.

Be cordial, be happy in yourself...almost so that he can see he is outside of it...because he will want to be inside of it. You can casually invite him to join, but when you show him that you have expectations, he feels pressured. This doesn't mean you are pressuring...he is feeling it. He can sense that you are happy because of what he is showing. He is still to fragile to withstand that burden...clearly since he retreats again. And this sends you...or any LBS...into a crash.

I have been happy. RCR, I have genuinely been happy and friendly and warm w/o being overwhelming. Truly. He likes being around me. He likes talking to me. He says he still thinks I'm beautiful. I was really getting the sense that he wanted to be in my life again. He comments on how the house looks when I change things, as if he still lived here.

Sweetie, you of all people should recognize that last statement as the Hopeless stage of Depression...the lowest of the low. "I'm bad, so I might as well live with it because there is nothing I can do to change it." He sees no end in sight, no way out and this is his lot in life.

RCR, that's what I thought. I thought good, he's finally opening up to me, maybe there's a chance now that he'll really work on things. But then, w/in weeks of that, he began casually dating ow2, and now, since VD, they have been serious. What happened???? Was it b/c I said then that I was ready to start LS if that's really how he feels? Damn, I am just kicking myself now.

There are different answers to your question. For YOU, I feel you need to drop the rope that is your relationship...hey, that old relationship is dead anyway. Focus on yourself and being happy within yourself and ANY life you have.

MNake your motivations selfmotivations rather than relationship- motivations. That is, be happy within yourself for its own purpose rather than as a manipulative means to get your MLCers to progress or become curious about you. Trust that those things will ALSO happen...but they are secondary.

Thank you for this advice. I am mostly doing that, but if I am honest, part of me is still wanting H to sit up and take notice.

You are tired. You have had a rocky marriage with separate periods of crisis. You stated bomb drop was August 2005...but there was also divorce talk in 2004. I personally believe those images are your true desire...and thus they may be a KNOWING. But as you pointed out...I cannot know.

You are talking legal separation and divorce...sounds like you are choosing the fomrer. Do that if you must...especially if you must do it for finances and such.

But you are not ready to say this is over. Yes, you've been doing this for a long time...and yet it seems clear to me you are not ready. Patti/MTN and MEA were ready when they made their choices. They DB'd there butts off, and came out strong in their decisions..and thus even as a Stander I tried to stop encouraging they Stand. I do not feel that with you.

You feel defeated, frustrated and just plain tired. But deep down you still want your marriage...as a good marriage.

You are right.

I feel that I must do the LS for my own sanity. I am very worried about money, and I feel like that is part of the reason I am still attached to my M. I want to feel like I can really do it on my own, feel independent and strong. At that point, I will really be coming from a place of strength, not weakness.

His answers also exhibit more of the Depressive Hopelessness I talked about earlier. This is his lot in life, so he might as well deal with it...since he is powerless to change it.

You are reading too much into his answers. He gave you answers that he knew you would not like. He gave answers that exhibit how dead he feels inside. He gave answers that show he is lost and not yet capable of handling the burden of his guilt.

And yet he complimented you on how you have handled the last few years. Good...it means he is seeing you as strong. Strength is an attractive force. But don't get all wound up in that...be strong for yourself.

But if he is in a depressive/hopeless stage, why is he even in a position to be dating? Why isn't he at home crying?

Yes, he does see me as strong, and I'm happy for that, for myself also.

Sweetie, you need a break. You are spinning right now and you need to get your SELF back...however you feel you must. SO if that means Standing Down...then do it.
But from your posts, I do not feel that you should because it is not what you want. But to continue perhaps not Standing...but keeping yourself open to the possibility of reconciliation in the future...you need to take a break and determine what is important in your life. Right now you ar enot in condition to make life-changing decisions. Recharge and focus on yourself.

Move on. That is when the MLCer turns back. Move on for yourself and just expect him to check you out.

In all honesty, I don't really expect him to look back, but of course, it is always a possibility. He keeps telling me to date, which just ticks me off! Yesterday, he told me that the way I'm feeling is normal, of course it hurts. I said I thought he'd be jumping for joy when I get serious about somone else. He said, no, he won't, in a sad voice.

RCR, really the tipping point for me is this ow. I just don't get it. I mean, those great feelings of being w/ someone new can go on for years. What am I supposed to do? Sweetheart is now back with you, and he really wasn't gone that long, from what I know. I am so afraid of giving up my chances of marrying again by holding on for this guy. I don't know how to just leave the door open a crack.

Again, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it very much.

[Rollercoasterider]

Nicola,

Think of the first eight quotes as bullet point to show how you are either saying you are worried he will move on and you want him still...mixed with a few where you talk about it being over.

I commented on a few...but that was other aspects. They were really meant to be examples showing how you still want your marriage.

Yes, I did ask him. Yesterday, I truly felt that all was lost. I am still feeling that today. I am really, finally grieving my M. That is why I did the big NO-NO of initiating R-talk. I figured I had nothing to lose.

You only have nothing to lose when you do not want to reconcile. Feeling that the chances are slim is not nothing. Look at what Happy_Again said on the first thread he started last week...I've been meaning to post these back to his thread to stress them.

when i felt the freedom to say no without being made to feel like an ass then i began saying yes.

it was when Allie stopped pretending and started to be real and i could trust her only then did i make the long journey towards home again.

These are DIRECTLY realted to the Finally_Free/Happ_Again excerpt I posted with my Limbo article.

Whenever I had doubts about my decision I would email or call my wife and as she was either crying or being a bitch it was easy to tell myself I made the right choice. When she stopped reacting I starting thinking.

Let it be...how long have you ever gone without saying something about your relationship...not understanding, not wanting a divorce...ANYTHING? Start now.

But isn't a decent person nice to everyone?

But then what of those 'decent people' who are sick mentally?

I had wanted to say this before...but when I sat back down couldn't recall the thought.

Your blaming yourself or feeling that this is because you are at fault or somehow not good enough is akin to my Aunt blaming herself for my Uncle's schizophrenia. But no one (these days at least) would consider doing such a thing.

MLC is mental Dis-Ease. It is not disease, and it not something 'wrong.' It is a transitional stage wherein some people expereince greater turmoil.

If we considered those in life transitions to be truly diseased, we'd have to lock up all the teenagers.

I wonder b/c he is actually, in a strange way, trying to be nice to me, unlike so many of the MLCers here who just spew horribly. Maybe he is just a WAH, who doesn't want to hurt me, but just doesn't love me anymore. Is that not a possibility?

I think you've hit on a common LBS fear. Whenever their MLCer isn't reacting as most others react she fears he's just a WAH...even when the way he is acting is positive compared to other MLCers. We so much want to diagnose MLC...well, first, I believe he is MLC. But I als feel you need to forget about that...it just doesn't matter.

But many MLCers do not spew. Some because they've learned that it will not cause a spousal reaction--Sweetheart spewed very rarely... And even lately when I've posted about going into Bitch-Mode I would not call his reactions spewing. Sure he was arguning...but spewing was beyond that...it was mean for the sake of meanness.

But I believe spewing is mainly Replay behaviour. That's not to say it doesn't happen in other phases. But I see it as an early behaviour used to get the LBS to see that it really is over. If the LBS continues to react to the spews, they will continue.

Wso he doesn't spew...he should be beyond spewing at this phase.

Nothing has changed. I was actually doing very well emotionally before this. I've just dropped like a stone. Yeah...we can tell. Maybe something isn't working as well as it used to work. I don't like pharmaceuticals and wouldn't have brought them up had you not already had issues with clinical depression. Please see your doctor.

Yes, that's true. You also comment that it is often slow, but this really seems slower than most. I mean, if it started a minimum of three years ago, shouldn't it be nearing the end???

Well first this goes back to that quote I put from Jim Conway. Your lack of Acceptance of this being a lengthy process may have served to extend it. And that in no way means the crisis is your fault. But it does mean you have held on to him and he has thus not been able to retreat into himself for deeper work.

And...MLC is 2-7 years. Some take a long time. BND...four years so far...and just now coming to an end. Snodderly's husband began some reconnecting last year...with the death of a family member...? Her register date speaks for itself.
2-7 years is the Conway range. This board is not a good indicator because how many do you think will Stand for 7 years. Four is considered extra long for a person to Stand. So I believe most Stand down...and if there MLCers reconnect later, we may never know.

What we see here is mostly Replay and Depression. I can really say that Acceptance is a mystery to me...and Withdrawal, well I still see that as a subphase within Depression...but it could simply be my lack of understanding due to not seeing those MLCers.

I have been happy. RCR, I have genuinely been happy and friendly and warm w/o being overwhelming. Truly. He likes being around me. He likes talking to me. He says he still thinks I'm beautiful. I was really getting the sense that he wanted to be in my life again.

And until now you were handling things well. But what happened is that because you were happy he became interested...and then you showed him that you are hopeful...he then became scared, retreated and you crashed. I think I talked about this in my Limbo post last week.

What this shows is that first your expectasions were still above zero... and he felt that. But also that there was some manipulation in your happiness--not deliberate. But some of the morivation behind your happiness was to get him to notice and move toward you. Do it for yourself...tough, I know when we say to do it for yourself BUT when you do he will begin paying attention.

you of all people should recognize that last statement as the Hopeless stage of Depression...the lowest of the low. "I'm bad, so I might as well live with it because there is nothing I can do to change it." He sees no end in sight, no way out and this is his lot in life.

RCR, that's what I thought. I thought good, he's finally opening up to me, maybe there's a chance now that he'll really work on things. But then, w/in weeks of that, he began casually dating ow2, and now, since VD, they have been serious. What happened???? Was it b/c I said then that I was ready to start LS if that's really how he feels? Damn, I am just kicking myself now.

Well, first don't expect him to open up to you. Sorry...I know we all want that. But he still doesn't feel safe with that. Just be relieved that he is opening up...and trust it is happening outside of your presence.

As for the new OW...forget about her. Decent women do not date married men...PERIOD. MLCers cycle and he is doing that. Perhaps he got scared of more Depression and ran back for some Replay fun. They also do this at Acceptance...though I"m not even considering he's there. And as for it being a rataliatory response to LS...who knows. Maybe he will be yupset and say I'll show her. Maybe he will feel relief...that you are letting go and moving on.

Those all have good things...realtiation means he is upset at you...and thus thrwoing a tantrum. Relief shows he needs space form you...there are other eason...and too many for you to fret over...OWs are as important as doo doo on shoes. They stink and cling a lot...but they go away.

I am mostly doing that, but if I am honest, part of me is still wanting H to sit up and take notice.

Me too. That is okay...as long as you just shrug it off when you cannot tell that he has taken notice...and for the record...he has noticed, you just weren't aware.

I feel that I must do the LS for my own sanity. I am very worried about money, and I feel like that is part of the reason I am still attached to my M. I want to feel like I can really do it on my own, feel independent and strong. At that point, I will really be coming from a place of strength, not weakness.

I think so too--but that shouldn't matter. If you feel you need to do it...then do it with complete confidence in your decision.

But if he is in a depressive/hopeless stage, why is he even in a position to be dating? Why isn't he at home crying?

Ho do you know he isn't crying...inside or out. Depressives need shoulders and perhaps the OW is being that. Early OWs validate and affirm--as do later OWs. But perhaps early OWs are the partyers...Replay OWs, and Depression OWs are nurses and nurterers...or perhaps Mothers.

Many have OWs beyond Replay.

In all honesty, I don't really expect him to look back, but of course, it is always a possibility. He keeps telling me to date, which just ticks me off! Yesterday, he told me that the way I'm feeling is normal, of course it hurts. I said I thought he'd be jumping for joy when I get serious about somone else. He said, no, he won't, in a sad voice.

They all tell us to date--but you knew that. So what do you say in response? I told Sweetheart I will NEVER date--unless he is dead. That wasn't said in some morbid way...but 'til death do us part. I told him as long as we were both alive we were both married to each other and I wouldn't date and that no matter what he would be commiting adultery if he did. Those are harsh words...and I don't recmmend that harshness with your MLCer right now...but it's an example. And notice he even admitted it wouldn't make him happy if you dated...that's because he wants you and regrets that he feels he cannot have you--the martyr.

the tipping point for me is this ow. I just don't get it. I mean, those great feelings of being w/ someone new can go on for years. What am I supposed to do?

[color:#6600CC]Yes...that was clear...it was at the disocvery of the OW that you began talking of standing down.

What do you do?
Nothing. You go on and do not react.
Be glad that he has someone to cry on...

And be glad and sad both that unfortunatley she is being used...she's a depression nurse and will be dumped or when he can take care of himself she will dump him.

And trust. Being without doubt is important. MLCers always look back toward the wife...Jim Conway stressed that...ALWAYS.

As for Sweetheart. He came and left six times...and No, he was never gone for long and always a complete Drop-In.

But consider that he wasn't gone long because I accepted.

HUGS,
RCR

[princess_nic]

Thanks again.

I will just say that the longest I've gone w/o R talk was probably five months: July-Nov. I was really proud of that b/c I'd usually get to three and go nuts before then! I don't know what came over me yesterday; I think I just went momentarily insane, lol!

I wish I hadn't shown him how much I cared, but whatcha gonna do? It's done now.

I will look into a new L and go forward with the LS.

Laurie warned me that he may warm up at this pt b/c he is more relaxed--phew, she's over me. It could be more, but I need to be aware of that and be careful of my feelings.

Must get back to marking.

Thanks again.