Harmonic Divergence

[Lord Grenville]

LG... I guess I just don't know what to say... she's moving out. She's kicking up the R with OM. It's not looking good. Have you talked with a DB counselor from the board?

Yeah - A few days ago, our credit card company made an interesting gaffe - my W had gotten a new credit card without telling me, but instead of sending the bill to her work address as she requested, they mailed it to our home, as they do with our joint account. I opened it up thinking it was our joint card, and I saw that there was only one charge in the past month - to Verizon for pre-paid minutes for a "pay as you go" phone. This was charged the day after I confronted her with the knowledge of the OM.

I did a 180 by giving her the bill on Saturday, and not saying anything else about it, other than "you probably need to call them to straighten out the mailing address issue".

I had my first consultation with a DB Coach today - I spoke with Joann Sallmann. She helped me to discern what kinds of actions and interactions have been getting positive response with my W recently.

The good news is that I spent most of the weekend with my W, without talking about our R, and we enjoyed going to an art exhibition and having a delicious lunch at a classic diner on Sunday.

Last night at our MC, when I expressed my desire to be able to see her at least once a week in the upcoming months of separation, she was very amenable. I said that I hoped we could remain close friends during the separation, and she instantly kissed me and gave me a very tight hug that lasted longer than I expected. She told me that was her hope too.

I am following the advice shared by "David", in the article "While Your Spouse Decides" which links off the DB home page. He writes very convincingly about how maintaining a friendship, as though you are your spouse's best friend, allows the door to remain open for the friendship to grow into something more again. My W and I started off as good friends over 20 years ago, and love blossomed naturally while neither of us was intending to start a new relationship.

Joann gave me the same advice my SSM friends here already suggested, that now is not the time to go to a Retrouvaille weekend.

She also said that I should focus on being very observant for subtle body language and actions my W initiates, so that I can learn which things are working and which ones are not.

I will do my best to maintain a positive outlook for now and the upcoming months, and I will post again when I have questions or any new developments to share.

{:-]>

[Baltoman]

My wife and I went to retrouvaille a couple of years ago. It was a very important experience and we would be divorced now without it. We still have many problems but the weekend was extremely worthwhile.

[Lord Grenville]

My wife and I went to retrouvaille a couple of years ago. It was a very important experience and we would be divorced now without it. We still have many problems but the weekend was extremely worthwhile.

Hi Baltoman,

When you attended your Retrouvaille weekend, would you say that both you and your wife were committed to improving communication and working on your marriage?

Right now, my W is feeling overwhelmed with a lot of things - especially figuring out how she is going to tell her Catholic parents and other relatives that she is separating from me.

Joann, my DB coach, asked me if I thought suggesting the Retrouvaille weekend would bring my wife closer, push her away or have a neutral effect? My observations and intuition suggest that discussing the R weekend would have the effect of pushing her away from me. So that is why we most likely will not be doing the Retrouvaille weekend next week.

[Cobra]

LG,

It seems your DB coach was against Retrouvaille at first:

Joann gave me the same advice my SSM friends here already suggested, that now is not the time to go to a Retrouvaille weekend.

But here, she asked you, rather than tell you:

Joann, my DB coach, asked me if I thought suggesting the Retrouvaille weekend would bring my wife closer, push her away or have a neutral effect? My observations and intuition suggest that discussing the R weekend would have the effect of pushing her away from me.

Maybe your coach is having second thoughts? Maybe she should, especially in light of the reaction your wife gave you:

Last night at our MC, when I expressed my desire to be able to see her at least once a week in the upcoming months of separation, she was very amenable. I said that I hoped we could remain close friends during the separation, and she instantly kissed me and gave me a very tight hug that lasted longer than I expected. She told me that was her hope too.

If you think much of your problems grew out of you being too distant from your wife, and assuming she is seeing the OM to be closer to someone, not farther from them, why would Retrouvaille not be the right thing to do? Perhaps the original hypothesis on how to deal with your wife should be re-thought? I'm not saying I know the correct strategy, but something tells me your current path may need some tweaking.

[Lord Grenville]

Thanks for getting me to reexamine this Cobra.

I actually only have spoken with Joann once. When I said yesterday that she had given me the same advice - not to go to Retrouvaille - that was the conclusion based on how I answered her question to me - that my W would most likely be pushed away by discussing the weekend.

But now I am wondering:
If I ask my wife (only once) if she might consider going to the Retrouvaille weekend with me,

and NOT

beg her to go,
or
ask her several times during the next week if she will go
or
keep talking about the positive testamonials for Retrouvaille...etc.

then how great a distance could she be pushed away, by me simply asking her, one time, if she would consider going?

It will clearly remind her that I am willing to work at whatever it takes to improve things in our marriage. It's just not clear that she wants to try. So maybe that is another reason for me to simply ask her - so that I will have a better idea of whether she is willing to work at all, or if what she wrote in her journal back in January is what she truly believes right now: "We have given and received all that we can in the marriage".

[Lord Grenville]

Maybe your coach is having second thoughts? Maybe she should, especially in light of the reaction your wife gave you:

Last night at our MC, when I expressed my desire to be able to see her at least once a week in the upcoming months of separation, she was very amenable. I said that I hoped we could remain close friends during the separation, and she instantly kissed me and gave me a very tight hug that lasted longer than I expected. She told me that was her hope too.

Actually, Cobra,

I think that my wife is hoping that she can divorce me and yet not lose the friendship with me. When I expressed what I did, she might have felt a lot of guilt lifted off her shoulders.

But what do I know? I am just a wobbly-legged land lubber, who has been set out on a course in rough seas that I've never navigated 'afore.

[Martelo]

I would find it very difficult to have a friendship with
someone who was leaving me for another man. You
are not resposible for her guilt, that is hers.

[blackfoot]

Blackfoot,
Could you please elaborate for the sake of some DBnewbies like myself?

I am working on detaching from my desired outcome of winning my W back, in case it does not happen (she is likely securing an apartment today, which will allow a burgeoning R with OM to grow).

How do I best continue to work at winning her affections, while giving her space that she has been requesting for two months, without looking like I am pursuing her, or needing her? Right now, I am telling myself that I am willing to work at this for at least 18 months.

Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks.


Hello LG.
I am glad you have a DB coach.

A lot of what I am going to say is a restatement of what has allready been said to you the past few days.


The way you stop 'looking like' you are pursuing her or needing her is to stop doing it.
Its the opposite of what you want to do, its the opposite of what your body is telling you to do, and your body will betray you at every turn. The only way you can attempt to have some semblance of control over your emotions is strict thought control. Save your emotions for you and ride them all the way up and down. The faster you do that instead of trying to contain and control them the faster you will purge their affect on you, and return to some 'normalcy'

Never act while you are in one of these cycles. If you find yourself entering one, around her, immediately remove yourself. For your own reasons.

ANYTHING you do to get her attention, impress her, even 'give her space' if you are doing it 'for her', will be accurately perceived by her as supplicating. She knows what she is doing is wrong. She knows she is treating you badly. She cannot accept or understand you wanting her, becuase of her guilt. It contradicts her inner voice. There is nothing you can SAY to change it.

If she wants space. give it to her. Cut her off. Make her earn your presence again. I did not say tell her you are going to cut her off.

The only way you can avoid the appearance of supplicating is to have really really strict boundaries about how you will allow yourself to be treated. Its about you taking care of you. treat her exactly as you would a person you just started dating. When you first start you are not 'afraid' of what you say, because it may put her off. You are not second guessing your every move, because you are not worried about her response (showing hesitancy). If you want to put your hands on her, just put your hands on her. If she says stop, stop, and just look at her. If it feels 'weird' to you its gonna feel 'weird' to her.

We still hug and I can still manage to get a 1-second "hello" or "goodbye" kiss
What does this mean you can manage? Is that what you want? the drip of water you can squeeze out of a rock?


If she is rude or unkind, you dont accept it. Period. If she is disrespectful you immediatly show with your actions that it is unacceptable. that is a boundary unafraid. Do you really want someone who is disrespectful?

Are you afraid to fight with her? To argue with her? To tell her the things she did wrong in the M?

Were you afraid in the past to do these things?
When you argue, do you listen, and Identify the real complaint, or do you try to assure her that you wont do that anymore.

Do not talk about D, or assist her with making those decisions or efforts. protect yourself, prepare yourself, and then forget about it, untill she makes the first sword swing. Preparation will allow you to defend yourself should the need arise. Do not engage in needy pulling. ex. 'you treat me terrible, why do you do that, its hurting my feelings.'

I would save your money on the MC. Its useless while she is having an A. Anything you say in there will be seen as supplicating, or as an excuse for her behavior. Lose lose. Useless. Continue the IC. That has a big IMO stamped on it.

Dont look at it as 'winning your W back'. Your job is not to get her back, its to be the best LG that you can. Everytime she comes around you she belies her words. She is providing you with openings to fight for her. Do not talk about OM. Do not mention OM. Do not acknowledge his existance.
Saying 'in case it does not happen' is hedging your bets, its not assured, is mental and emotional sabatoge. when you try to prepare yourself for failure, you end up where you are focused.
Do you know your W loves you? Does she know, you know?

You want her. Thats ok. You can say that to yourself. Allowing yourself that will allow you to 'act' attractive instead of reactive and needy. She has a LOT of emotion invested in you, which is why she is acting out.
Know that.
She is doing it to get your attention and stop you from having so much control over her emotions. Its not working though. Its tearing her up. Thats not your fault, so dont try to save her from it. She can fix it by making a decision.

Stay busy GAL.
Do you consider your M a viable R still, or do you acknowledge that it is dead?
What are your reasons for still wearing your wedding ring?

[Lord Grenville]

I would find it very difficult to have a friendship with someone
who was leaving me for another man.
You are not resposible for her guilt - that is hers.

Yes Martelo - it will be very difficult to maintain a friendship with my W, if she goes forward with a R with OM. But that is one strategy that has worked for others.

I am very clear about the fact that I am not responsible for her guilt - I was just explaining why I think she kissed and embraced me during MC when I told her I wanted to remain close friends during the separation.

So, I am putting this question out there:

If I only mention the Retrouvaille weekend as a possibility for my wife to consider, and I make it clear that I am o.k. with whatever she decides, then how much could proposing this option actually push her away?

[Lord Grenville]

Thanks very much for your post, Blackfoot!

The only way you can attempt to have some semblance of control over your emotions is strict thought control. Save your emotions for you and ride them all the way up and down. The faster you do that instead of trying to contain and control them the faster you will purge their affect on you, and return to some 'normalcy'.

This is something I really need to work on. When you talk about "riding" them, I take that to mean to feel the emotions completely, and let them pass through me at the time that they come up. Which I have begun to do a little better recently.

ANYTHING you do to get her attention, impress her, even 'give her space' if you are doing it 'for her', will be accurately perceived by her as supplicating. She knows what she is doing is wrong. She knows she is treating you badly. She cannot accept or understand you wanting her, becuase of her guilt. It contradicts her inner voice. There is nothing you can SAY to change it.

Wow - I really have not been able to understand this until I read it today.

You are not second guessing your every move, because you are not worried about her response (showing hesitancy). If you want to put your hands on her, just put your hands on her. If she says stop, stop, and just look at her. If it feels 'weird' to you its gonna feel 'weird' to her.

Thanks - that advice will really help me in future interactions.

Are you afraid to fight with her? To argue with her? To tell her the things she did wrong in the M?

Yes. In our 19 years of marriage, I think we both have been making that mistake. Now, how can tell her the things she did wrong in the M, if I am supposed to avoid talking about the R as part of DB?

Do you know your W loves you? Does she know, you know?

All I know is that she has written the classic WAW: "ILHBINILWH" in her journal, but she has not ever verbalized it to me directly.

Do you consider your M a viable R still, or do you acknowledge that it is dead?
What are your reasons for still wearing your wedding ring?

I acknowledge that my W probably considers the M dead, but I believe it is still viable, and that she is being deluded by the "Divorce myths" that her IC and a close friend who just divorced last year, are constantly feeding her. My W comes from a lineage Italian/American learned behavior, where women did not really have the right to form or own an opinion, or express it.

I wear my wedding ring because, as I see it, my spirit is still married to my wife's beautiful spiritual being - it's just that her physical brain is being affected by physical brain chemicals, due to poor communication and expression of feelings on both our parts. Right now, her physical body/brain is preventing an open connection between her heart and spirit, and my heart and spirit.

I know - that may sound like a load of new age psychobabble to many of you, but the fact is - this is reality, because this is the belief system I completely exist in.

Our potential relationships were arranged before we incarnated, and the tricky part is that our physical brains/minds were erased in the passage from the spiritual realm to the birth channel of infancy. I know that my W and I were intended to meet and marry, but the free will that each of us can exercise in this lifetime, allows for us to make mistakes, get confused, or find healing. And there is no predestined end result. So even though I have faith that our marriage can be revived and become even better than it was, my W may choose to not truly see that potential, or may choose to do something that appears easier to her, like beginning a new relationship with someone else, rather than working hard on the one that we have been learning from together.