This is going to be a long one and may ramble because I am doing a million things at once so please bear with me, I really need some advice here.
I think that my H is cycling between what I will call EXTREME Replay, Depression and Withdrawal. It has been this way for some time now, I am not sure just how long but it seems like FOREVER to me. I guess if I really have to pinpoint, it is probably since last Summer sometime.
Last year about this time he gave me some bogus separation agreement that had no meat or potatoes. I asked him to find a mediator and we could discuss the terms of the agreement but I knew better than to just sign something without some legal representation. In this state the legal separation becomes final and the divorce after one year. So in my heart I felt that he was trying to weasel out of this but I was not going to make it any easier or harder for that matter. I was going to make sure that it was fair is that was what he wanted.
He never got a mediator, I never countered his offer of peanuts for CS and I have NEVER asked or implied that I wanted spousal support. I also told him that we should get some counseling before we moved forward with this. We went to see the Priest that married us –once. He contended that he was done and wanted a d. I stated that I thought that we could work it out.
He got annoyed and never went back. Many times in this journey I have wanted to give up and tell him to go frig himself. I am not that bad a person, I am not Tyra but I am not a hag either. I kept the family outings and sporadic intimacy going up until this Fall as well. Stupidly thinking that maybe through all of this he could see that I still care and want my family together. All the while he cake ate, coming and going as he chose and becoming more distant.
I have tried all of this time to remain friendly but I have admittedly pulled back quite a bit since October when I wrote him a letter telling him that we needed to move past this for the sake of our children and asking him to go to family counseling with me and the children. He went once-in November. As long as things were on his terms, he was fine. As long as I did not ask questions or seek anything from him, all was well. As long as he came and went as he chose with no responsibility and could look like the good guy to the kids while dumping all of the responsibility on me, it was all good.
So with much introspection and quiet strength (and many, many, many tears), I moved from our apartment to escape the ghosts of the past. I got a decent apartment some distance from him (he was no longer visiting the children regularly when we lived within walking distance of him). Distanced myself, tried to GAL as much as I could, stopped calling, stopped intimacy, remained polite but otherwise occupied, taking no to few calls from him (I’m busy right now, tell him I will call him back), I go out when he comes to see the kids or go into my bedroom. I politely ignore him. If and when I do go on the phone, I sound like a recording… “Oh, okay.—Sure—Ah ha. Oh,I see. Yeah, really, oh that does suck.” Aside from the pork chop incident last week, we have had little to no interaction. When the New Year came in, I started alternating weekends (this has not happened since he left). I have also filed for CS although he has not been served as yet.
This was his weekend to have the kids so I my friends invited me to DC overnight and I went. I called him at about 12 noon on Friday to let him know that I was going out of town and if he needed to reach me to call me on my cell. Things turned for the worse then, he started spewing venom. How was he supposed to get D to dance, etc, etc. he still lives with mom and tells me that he lives from check to check. Well, okay. You know what my kids ate for breakfast on Saturday? French fries and fried eggs. He does not buy groceries or could not this week, whatever. He took them to our former babysitter’s on Saturday and Sunday so that they could eat under the guise of visiting her but he is a user so it was so that all of them including him could eat. I also think that he may be seeing this woman. (Note on two of the last weekend visits I have gotten a private call on my cell at about 2am where the person hangs up when I answer. I suspect that it is him.)
Lately it seems like he is sinking more into an ANGRY depression, just twisted in his thinking. He texted me on Sunday around 3 to ask if I could pick up kids at his mother’s ( assume that he was out) I was busy so, texted back No. This sent him into a RAGE. He texted back that he would bring them to me around 7:30-Sunday nite mind you.
So, I went to visit my mom and thought on my way back I would get kids. I call his mother’s and his brother who was visiting answered and said kids were not there. So, I went home. At 7:30 kids not back, call him at 7:45 and tell him to keep them. This sends him into a rage, he has a class, what am I going to do, etc, etc. He starts spewing venom, I am polite in telling him that with the change in time they are going to be extra wound up so he should just keep them and put them to bed. He lives closer to their school. They get to my house around 845! Note, kids do not go to sleep until 11:30!!! Talking and giggling, just wound up from no structure all weekend. I am fuming and call him to tell him that they are still up and not to have them visiting anyone that he is seeing. He of course is livid. I was not yelling or anything but who has the energy to yell when you are a sleep deprived and just holding on anyway?
So, last evening he calls me about something to do with the kids. I advise that I must move again as new owners purchased the house and have raised the rent. I cannot stay until the end of the school year as I originally thought and have found something closer to their school and somewhat more affordable. He barks HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED? I tell him and he goes off and I mean off the deep end over a thousand dollars. (Note, he does not give anything regularly will go and buy the kids sneakers though.) I remind him that his bonus comes int this week and he asks what does that have to do with me ? Then goes on about how he gave me a sep agreement and that I never signed and I reminded why. He is screaming at me that he wants a D. I told him that I would not stand in his way that I still cared and loved him (that is changing though) and that all that I have ever wanted was what was good for my family but if that was what he wanted what could I do about it. I mentioned that we should go for counseling to help the kids with this and he screamed that he does not want to go to counseling, he wants a d and that is that.
He was fuming mad and asked me how much I wanted a month for the children. I told him that this was not for me to determine but for the courts. HE FLIPPED. Mind you, I advised him a week or two ago that I want to buy a small house somewhere where I do not have to worry about moving constantly and what the landlord will say. He asked where in this tiny defeated voice. I told him where, and he barked… you think it cheaper there? To quote Ricky Ricardo, Ay yay yay. That I should do what I have to do , there are consequences to MY actions and I should remember that. The courts are going to take all of his money and there a consequences to MY actions.
So, did I handle this correctly ? He just called me a few minutes ago to ask about an old escrow account’s documentation. I guess he wants to take it out to get a lawyer. I think that he is a hard case that will need to get a d to be satisfied and I am certainly not going to stand in his way as he has slapped my hand every time I try to get him to counseling. Severe depression runs in his family in the men.
I need some advice here, please help. I am most sure that I am done but I am so cash strapped that I cannot spare a nickel for a lawyer. This is getting bad. I think that he is upset that I went away, am GALing, have distanced but he is so whacked he does not know what to do with himself.
I will have to stop talking to him altogether. I agree. I also just burst out laughing because on Sunday when he brought the kids home he made it a point to come into my house, make a public show of kissing the kids and stomping around for few minutes before storming out.
I told him that I would not stand in his way that I still cared and loved him (that is changing though).
My feelings are changing toward him because he has turned into a monster. So,I will not stand in his way any longer if what he wants is a D. I will not make it any easier or more difficult for him to attain, despite what he might think. I will only do what is fair to me and for my children. One year ago I would NEVER have thought this way. I am most sure that I am done
I want to respond to your post, but wanted to get these things posted first. Which is it? Of course you can still love him and refuse to take him back...but that wasn't how I read that first quited statement.
I understand. He would have to do some extensive work for me to take him back at this point. I know that he is not ready but I also sense within myself that we may be approaching that point of no return where no matter what he does, it would be hard to take him back. Are you saying oyu're done because you do not think he will ever return or because you personally are done?
Personally nearing done with this phase. There is nothing else that I can do. I am tired and feeling that we will continue to cycle like this for forever.
What do you want? Before you answer...this is not about what you THINK will happen...what he wants, his directions etc.
I want what most people want, to live happily ever after. When this all started, I thought that that would mean me and H skipping down the yellow brick road. Now, I just see it as a peaceful life. Me and my kids moving to a decent house in a decent neighborhood and just having a nice quiet life with good friends and some family. Peace and contentment. A normal life really, nothing extravant just not this constant upheaval and walking on egg shells waiting for the next shoe to drop. I would love some sort of companionship and intimacy at some point as well.
Do you want your marriage...to the real person, not the monster...actually to someone improved from the original.
Hmmm. To the real person in an improved version, well that would be ideal. But I am coming to grips with the idea that this may not be a possibility.
Whether you want tobe married to the present person...we all know the answer...so that is not waht I want you to consider.
I know this is tough and frustrating...but you mention a few times in your post that you've asked him to go to counseling...and I got the idea you may have been persistent about it.
You have been fed-up and wanted to smack him and just say 'get over it,' or 'grow up.'
But that isn't how this works.
This insistence has and will have the opposite effect...practically guaranteed.
Okay...you've responded to my questions now, so I will address that response also.
So the ideal would be your true husband but improved.
That is a possibility...not an improbablity at all. BUT it is YEARS away. He will have sooner small improvements...but greatness takes time.
But you are getting to the point of no-reurn...where no matter how much damage occurs you will no take him back.
So what will you do then, when after this crisis that ideal improved guy lives inside the present Monster?
I am serious...it is not guaranteed, but it is both possible and probable. And that guy may still not want to return...but let's say he does...
I truly believe a large percentage WANT to return...and the wife has moved on so they cannot or they fear the rejection and are still overwhelmed with guilt...they wish they could erase their actions.
Think of this person as your next relationship...you seem willing to consider another and move on. So in the future, can you move on with a the same person.
Yes, there will be painful history. But there is beautiful history too...just look at your kids. There is already a relationship established...and you know each other. Though you will need torediscover each other afresh.
I'm not trying to convince you. But I want you and others to think of these things.
When all of this started you envisioned a fairy tale ending...or at least the two of you happy and together. This is one of the greatest obstacles...TIME. You do not see that ending now. But you aren't there yet, thus why should you see it? What you have seen is that things are getting worse. Sorry...but Sweetie, you know this by now...that is the nature of MLC. It gets worse and worse and worse...for a very long time.
One thing I really wish is that posters would come in here and accept the TIME reality and make goals within that context. But all of us have the fantasy and hope that we will be the exception and change his mind.
And then I offer such a hope too...a fantastical hope when I tell you that YOU and your behaviour can make a difference. It believe it. But then what I bleive is that some MLCers will stop reacting a and projecting to the LBS...they will still go through MLC but not in Monster Mode. Some still will. And I believe acceptance doesn't so much speed up the journey as it doesn't lengthen it...and perhaps the norm is a lengthened journe, therefore it seems we may have speeded it up. boy that sounds confusing. Tell me if I lost you...or if I didn't too.
That is the greatest disbelief...TIME. It's understandable...no one wants to believe this won't be over soon. But it won't, and that is not something we can change.
So how about this. Move on. Close the door on the person he is NOW if you must. But if the real person knocks on your door...keep an open mind.
Let me start by saying thanks for responding. I will "marinate" on it and post back tomorrow. Then with a chuckle, I say... you lost me, help.
One thing that I can agree on with you is that they always want to come home and time is always a factor for the LBS. I have accepted time as a factor, even accepting the touch and goes where we as a family spent our weekends together at parks and amusement parks, movies and the mall and dinner just this past summer.
He peeked his head in and then split, I never mentioned counseling or us once over the summer. It nearly choked me not to but I didn't.
It is not for me to gauge per se where he is in this vicious cycle but more to check in on where I am. I guess in some ways I am nearing done because I don't think that being in the proverbial line of fire is the best place for me right now. I am getting weary. I stopped initiating contact, am polite but distant, ask no questions from him, don't snoop, have not taken him to court for cs all in attempts to let him see that together we could get over anything. he is still nuts.
I know that they always want to come home. I can see this in my Dad and at least 3 good friends MLC/LBS marriages. Like you said, time caught them in the "gap" and their wives moved on and liberated themselves leaving these men lying in the beds that they made.
I am just trying to get a handle on all of the emotions clashing around. Any helpt you offer would be most appreciated. Please tell me how my actions affect his. I am serious, i need a night light on this one.
So, the million dollar question is how long do you wonder while not really waiting?
Since Sweetheart is back, I would like to know your formula.
Good nite for tonite... this time change has me whacked out today.
I know this is tough and frustrating... (You are darn skippy on that one) but you mention a few times in your post that you've asked him to go to counseling...and I got the idea you may have been persistent about it. (Hmmmm. Maybe but not soooo persistent. Perhaps would not have mentioned it at all had I not know about a prior suicide attempt when he was a teen or a father's and brother's bouts of depression.) You have been fed-up and wanted to smack him and just say 'get over it,' or 'grow up.' (Ah, yup. Basically. SMILE)
But that isn't how this works. (Boo!) This insistence has and will have the opposite effect...practically guaranteed. (Yeah, you are probably right.)
Okay...you've responded to my questions now, so I will address that response also.
So the ideal would be your true husband but improved. (In an ideal word and world-yes)
That is a possibility...not an improbablity at all. BUT it is YEARS away. He will have sooner small improvements...but greatness takes time. (Ah, correct me if I misunderstood-- MORE YEARS? YIKES. It has already been since 2005 or so.)
But you are getting to the point of no-reurn...where no matter how much damage occurs you will no take him back. (I feel this way but we all know that acting on your feelings is a dangerous thing, right?
So what will you do then, when after this crisis that ideal improved guy lives inside the present Monster? (Hmmm. I don't know, really. Right now I am so hurt and tired and trying to relieve my own pain that I cannot fathom this concept. Guess I should try to.)
I am serious...it is not guaranteed, but it is both possible and probable. And that guy may still not want to return...but let's say he does... (He is so adamant that is he not returning that I am starting to believe that he will not. Truth be told, I know that they all do want to return and some try for years like my two friends husbands. But, from what I have seen including with my own father that the women start to learn how to live without them and then move on after years to other relationships. One friend went 5-6 years waiting for her husband. He divorced her and everything in that time. He starting trying to get back in by year 6-7, just as she started dating.)
I truly believe a large percentage WANT to return...and the wife has moved on so they cannot or they fear the rejection and are still overwhelmed with guilt...they wish they could erase their actions. I 100 percent agree, even in the case of my own parents.
Think of this person as your next relationship...you seem willing to consider another and move on. So in the future, can you move on with a the same person. Yes, I could move on with this person. I could try to get over the pain and love him again.
Yes, there will be painful history. But there is beautiful history too...just look at your kids. There is already a relationship established...and you know each other. Though you will need torediscover each other afresh. (Yes, if this happened, we would be foolish not to do this if we were both available.) I'm not trying to convince you. But I want you and others to think of these things. (Thank you for even considering this as an opportunity.)
When all of this started you envisioned a fairy tale ending...or at least the two of you happy and together. This is one of the greatest obstacles...TIME. (Yup, it waits for no one.)You do not see that ending now. But you aren't there yet, thus why should you see it? (Hmmm. Gotta think about this.)
What you have seen is that things are getting worse. Sorry...but Sweetie, you know this by now...that is the nature of MLC. It gets worse and worse and worse...for a very long time. (What makes it better? What happens when a person is cake eating?)
One thing I really wish is that posters would come in here and accept the TIME reality and make goals within that context. But all of us have the fantasy and hope that we will be the exception and change his mind. (I accept time, I don't like it but I can accept it. The thing is that I cannot figure out is how they wake up, that is aside from slapping the dookie out of them. Oh, okay I know that that does not hurt either just thought that I would throw in some humor ...)
And then I offer such a hope too...a fantastical hope when I tell you that YOU and your behaviour can make a difference. It believe it. (Maybe you could help me here, I know that there is no true roadmap but what worked in your case, exactly. Was it just time, was it time and distance, was it time and hardships for your H, what was it? I know that each situation is different but it does help to see what has worked.)But then what I bleive is that some MLCers will stop reacting a and projecting to the LBS...they will still go through MLC but not in Monster Mode. (Oh please make this be true. I am so tired of being the bad guy. Even when I am not involved.) Some still will. And I believe acceptance doesn't so much speed up the journey as it doesn't lengthen it...and perhaps the norm is a lengthened journe, therefore it seems we may have speeded it up. boy that sounds confusing. Tell me if I lost you...or if I didn't too. (Ah, yeah,. Lost on this one SMILE--Help)That is the greatest disbelief...TIME. It's understandable...no one wants to believe this won't be over soon. But it won't, and that is not something we can change. (You mean that the inner control freak in me can't just fix this, huh?)
So how about this. Move on. Close the door on the person he is NOW if you must. But if the real person knocks on your door...keep an open mind. (That is a very big IF.)
Just a thought.(I really appreciate it, I cannot wait for your reply.) HUGS, RCR [/color] [/quote]
I will TRY to explain more clearly my feelings on Acceptance of the process and how it can affect TIME, and then address the quesitons you sent directly to me regarding my own situation.
Quote:
Jim Conway: The tunnel can be as long or short as people want. It can be shortened by working on the process or lengthened by denial.
So let's just put up some hypthetical and some accepted averages here.
Average MLC: 1-3 years This is merely a hypthertical # thrown out there...I could have used any range less than Jim's, so please do not read into it.
Average MLC as we expereince it (per Jim Conway et al.): 2-7 years
Think about this...for a married MLCer how common is it for the spouse to accept the process? And if they do accept...how quickly?
My assumption is it if the spouse accepts, it takes a long time. During this unacceptance time the MLC is being held back from progressing at a regular rate through the tunnel.
The spouse is not doing this deliberately...she/he is reacting in a natural manner to what is happening--the spouse is not at fault here.
An unmarried MLCer or one whose spouse accepts and let's go immediately is freed up to go through this crisis with fewer burdens...with a spouse there are still burdens that he palces on himself, but she is not adding to them through her behaviours.
Gravity on Earth is 9.81 meters per second squared.
Really...that isn't true at all locations. Ideal conditions are in a vacuum.
So MLC in a vacuum--without a spouse who may not accept the process and thus UNINTENTIONALLY holds the MLCer back--is faster than the MLC we experience.
In science class we are taught the 9.81 figure...rather than the expereinced #. It is the reverse with us MLC LBSs...we are taught the expereiential range instead...
Okay...now onto the questions you wrote to me.
Quote:
So, how are things now that Sweetheart is home? How long was he in MLC do you think? What do you think turned him around?
How are things...Things feel good. But that measn I don't feel the MLC things I felt before...all other returns were punctuated with the OWs presence...and thus far he seems to have effectively cut-off contact.
I get concerned though...he didn't get as bad as so many here...the affair was typical, but he rar5ely spewed, and I feel this was because I wouldn't put up with it
then again he projected some spewing toward our SIL since it didn;t work with me. But even then it was really only during Aug and maybe some of Sept 2006. Maybe there was some I am unaware of or have forgotten.
He was in Depression Spring and Summer 2006 I fel...but then again, it wasn't sevre like Hopfloats' MLCer...so I often wonder if he dealt with those issues that one finds at that stage.
Sweetheart is seasonal depressive--but to me this seems relatively mild. I've never (WHEW) felt him to be suicidal.
Note: I am stating things here that I don't fret and worry over constantly...but I keep them in mind to bring up with a counselor--for my own wonderings and peace of mind--not at all to tell Sweetheart he isn't done.
How long was he in MLC do you think? Bomb Drop was 20 March 2005. I have found no specific inciting incident a few years before that date.
As for how long...is he out? I will not make that claim until things have felt good for 12-18 months at least.
He came and left home six times--okay, three larger times (a few times were a few days in length)
And those larger times...he was never really home or gone for longer than three months...ACCEPT the last time he was gone. And he asked to come home right on the three onths schedule...I said no. That meant he was suddenly stuck at the OWs instead of choosing to be there...I held that No for three months.
I let him come home January 6th 2007. This return has felt vastly different than all others.
BUT...we have not began counseling yet--there's a waiting list AAARGH And phsyical relations...not resumed. I'm not pushing those...he needs to be tested and I think he's scared of intimacy...that he won't have those feelings, and/or embarrassed about sex--always has been. HE is avoiding being tested to avoid the intimacy...and this is a safe way for him to do that...he then feels he isn't rejecting me. I've known this all along...and the other day he even speculated in that direction.
What do you think turned him around? A few things here.
First, I think perhaps there is a misnomer about turning around or maybe even awakening. The MLC tunel has no turn arounds...it has bends, hills and curves...but it is forward. There are places ahead that are worse than places behind and vice versa.
He had to go through this...and so did I. He is also a Drop-In...a type of MLCer who likes to be in contat with the LBS. And Sweetheart was a clingy Drop-In--he was clingy before also.
My mom said a huge thing I did was NOT WAIVER EVER. Once it wa safe, I told him this...it was less safe the first time he left when he truly believed he was leaving me...he may have figured out he wasn't soon after moving, but did not express it VERBALLY.
But in the beginning before he ever moved he said things like
I think you can save this just after moving: It may be a few years, but int he end I think I'll choose you
Some may feel those are things said to get me off his back...and at times he did do that...at other times the words carried a different energy. It was easy to tell the difference because when it was said to get me off his back he did it in a button pushing fasion...cocky teasing with evil grins...and since he's not good at that sort of thing he'd often fess up a second later...Ha you fell for it, I didn't mean it..that sort of thing.
I tried to make myself and our home the safe place. It didn't want him to feel judged. And at the same time (it's a balance) I let him know that if I didn't approve--such as I was not going to enable his affair. There are rules in a marriage and I held firm to that. The Ow was so desperate that she was sort of willing to compromise...sort of because she might agree that he could have relationship [friendship] with me to get him to move back to her...but once he was there he wasn't allowed any contat with me...she set up an online account to monitor his cell phone! Then when he changed the password she changed it on him...she did that with his email too--when he was living at home!
So I was very aware that I was not to control...I did some monitoring, but my wish has always been that he will be his own strength rather than needing me for my strength.
He wanted someone to make decisions for him...I refused and the OW was only too willing...so I let it happen.
Since his first return in August 2005 he has never truly left thinking he was leaving me forever. What made him look back THAT time?
WEll, second thoughts and a premature return are common...I knew that the return may not last...and yet he would return again. I made him feel safe. I showe dcomplete support. The Ow faked a pregnancy...and though everyone but Sweetheart believed she was faking. I validated...and really understood that this was something he had to believe more than the rest of us onlookers. AND I told him it didn't matter. I would raise the OWs baby with him if that was the route he chose...I'd help him fight for custody etc. I'd support joint custody, or I would even stand by him if he chose to give up his rights...would feel bad, but would support.
That's huge...and the fake pregnancy within 12 hours of his first return--odd coincidence huh? How many women would not raise her husband's illegitmate child--not born from a PREVIOUS relationship.
Stress: SAFE SAFE SAFE When he said I should date...I said I would NEVER date someone else. And then showed strength to avoid him feeling burdened in that I must be waiting and pining for him--which I was not doing. I consistently reassured him that I had forgiven...I told him this BEFORE he moved out and thus BEFORE the OW relationship was physical.
SO it was not only that I showed real strength. I made an effort o make him feel safe and welcome...wihtout pressure...though I sometimes failed at the last one--small things like getting upset when he called one night to say he'd be home in the morning...then in the morning he changed his mind because he couldn't move out on the OW when she had major surgery the next day.
I understood his feelings and fears...but Oh I was initially upset. If he hadn't said he'd be home...fine, but he had. I belive I texted him to get his a$$ home or ...something...if he wasn't home by such and such he owuld have to find somewhere else to live when he did move home. but that statement may have been related to something else...I'd have to read my old threads.
I also wouldn't put up with him lieing...He would try and deny something, and I would matter-of-factly state that denying or lieing was futile because he and I BOTH knew the truth.
So, I have been giving this some thought. Seems like H is determined to d me. Oh well. It is somewhat depressing but I have been trying to keep myself distracted. H is taking the kids to the movies tonight, no invite for me. So, I am going to get my hair done.
According to his mother, he is still sleeping out regularly. Must be nice, huh? Have your wife at home with your 3 kids while you go about life like a bachelor? Oh well. Guess that it does not matter one way or the other, eventually they will find eachother out.
Been feeling down at the prospect of this all going down like this but, what is one to do? I have been doing pretty well with distancing but I guess that I am down because MIL dragged me into the saga about his sleeping out and how he does nothing for her. I wanted to say,"JOIN THE FRICKING CLUB ! " but I bit my lip. Then the other day, she did the same thing about "Doing seven loads of your husband's wash." I did not bite my lip this time and said,"I would move home and stay too if someone was doing my wash>" It is when she says things that I get upset. She has been good to me but, I still just get this nagging feeling sometimes that she should slap the daylights out of her spoiled brat son and send him packing. Help him grow up instead of enabling.
Anywho, what is one to do ? just feeling a bit blah today after that interaction with you know who. And knowing that H could be involved with someone also hurts, I admit.
Guess that I should just try to push forward. Funny, everyone sees such good things for my future. I see nothing right now. I am trying to figure our how to buy a house but H has all but said that I will not get any money from him to do so.
Jsut wish that he was not so vindictive and angry.
