Quote: --------------------------------------------------------- To her credit, W tried many times to be inclusive/loving toward them, but she often felt betrayed by their habit of telling their mom everything that was going on at my house, and hearing it somehow regurgitated negatively by my ex to W over the phone, or over a phone message, or via email. ---------------------------------------------------------
Have you ever, and if so, do you continue, to correct your children for their disrespect? Do you correct them in front of your wife?
I understand tensions between mixed families, but the rules of basic respect always apply, even if your kids hate your wife.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I wasn’t trying to dodge your question. I was actually having a hard time understanding what you meant. I agree with what you that HD needs to ask MsHD to state her explicit desire to stay in the marriage. Certainly no harm in trying. My guess is that she has one foot out the door because that is what makes her feel safe an in control, not that she wants out of the marriage. I have not hard evidence for thinking she wants in or out. I am basing a lot of my opinions on how my wife reacted.
A few times in counseling we were able to ask my W point blank what she wanted, after all she was doing plenty of complaining. She did the usual deflection thing, but once we got past all that, she could not answer. Literally!
She has said she will not commit to that change. So what WILL she commit to, if anything? If she will not commit to anything, then what is the evidence that she wants the marriage to succeed? The fact that she hasn't left yet is clearly not very strong evidence. That can just be inertia.
I agree, but it can also be fear. I think she is scared to move in any direction. This was certainly my wife. She had valid complaints at one time, but after I addressed them she little else to complain about. But she still was not happy, still did not think she wanted to be married. When it came to D, she decided she did not want that either. What does all that mean? Is it really inertia? I was pushing her pretty damn hard to move one way or the other.
She has got to stick her neck out in some miniscule way at some point.
No, I think there is another option for her, and that is to just stay where she is, in limbo. Remember, she is not high on self esteem either, so pursuing her own happiness is not a comfortable position for her to be in. If D were clearly the way to her own peace and happiness then I think she would be working toward it. But I don’t see any signs she is doing that. She just wants to stay in her own little world, not bothered by anyone.
HD said: Lil: I don't think she wants it to fail. Mostly because of DD5 - W is likely very concerned about DD5's adoption/abandonment issues, and, truth be told, she knows that I am a good father and certainly better to keep around than to have all those issues to have to deal with regard to DD5.
You should get some security out of this knowledge. This might e another sign she does not want D.
To her credit, W tried many times to be inclusive/loving toward them, but she often felt betrayed by their habit of telling their mom everything that was going on at my house, and hearing it somehow regurgitated negatively by my ex to W over the phone, or over a phone message, or via email.
HD, this is no small matter. It is no different that a man refusing to stand up to his mother and protecting his wife. Of course your wife feels betrayed, not only by your kids but by you. Have you told you ex and your kids that you will not tolerate such talk about your wife? If not, heck even if you have, do it again, and this time be sure to lay down the lay in front of your wife. She needs to hear and see you protect her.
I tried to foster the relationship, to smooth things over between all involved (trying to be the peacemaker),
Peacemaker for whose sake? Yours or your wife’s? Does she get any comfort out of your attempts to smooth ruffled feathers? Do you take a stand on her behalf? If not, then you are implicitly siding with the kids over her. You need to lay some ground rules with the kids that this is disrespectful and you will not tolerate it, no more than you would tolerate them criticizing you.
Did you read my post to Choc, where I mentioned that both he and his wife were taking turns playing martyr? Do you see some of this going on here? Your kids and your wife are in a cold war and you are trying to self protect and stay out of fire. That makes both sides resort to passive aggressive behavior and start playing into that helpless, angry victim cycle. You are the common element here. You are the leader. You need to stand up and stop this.
It's harder for W. Still, if she were able to take things less personally, as she did earlier in the relationship, it would be easier for everyone.
It would be easier for her to take things less personally if she knew YOU were committed and did not have one foot out the door. You’ve got to start changing your passive aggressiveness HD. You are killing your marriage.
"Yes, I did, continue to do so, and in front of her."
Excellent.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
You need to lay some ground rules with the kids that this is disrespectful and you will not tolerate it, no more than you would tolerate them criticizing you.
I have done, and continue to do this. One area in particular is the "telling mom what goes on over here" issue. I have told the kids many times, quite clearly, that, unless something is going on at my house that is dangerous, risky, etc., their mother has no business knowing it. They "get it", but continue to tell ex things she has no business knowing. (E.g., that W went to a Buddhist retreat, that me and W were arguing loudly, that W spent money on DD5 but doesn't take them shopping anymore). W tells me that sometimes she feels like she has a house full of "spies" and that she can't relax when they are there. I agree. I lecture. I lay down the law. They follow it for awhile, then they don't. Part of the blame is that their mother is likely cross-examining them.
My point about being a peacemaker was less about soothing ruffled feathers and more about being the "mediator" between the two "camps." Although she may have had issues with me in this regard in the past (that I wasn't advocating her position strongly enough), I don't think that's a big problem today. I was just trying to explain how and why she didn't follow through on "list item" about her being a "loving role model" for the kids.
They "get it", but continue to tell ex things she has no business knowing…….I lecture. I lay down the law. They follow it for awhile, then they don't. Part of the blame is that their mother is likely cross-examining them.
I was thinking about this on the way home last night, remembering how my dad has also told my brother and I things. Rarely has he ever been the strong disciplinarian, even when we were kids. As teens, I don’t recall him ever laying down the lay. But, I do know from my mother, that he thinks he has done this at times, or at least had his say. It just never really came across to us that way.
My brothers and I grew up in a dysfunctional home with plenty of yelling and fighting. That is what we know and what we respond to. My dad’s more natural tendency to be the peacemaker just doesn’t resonate with us. He makes his remarks in a rather diplomatic, non-confrontational way, to get his point across so he can say he talked to us, but also to not get anyone mad either. My mom will say what she thinks, and jump right into an argument with everything and the kitchen sink. Somewhere in these two approaches is the ideal for us.
My point to you is maybe your kids are used to handling a higher level of confrontation that you, so even though you may think you are laying down the law, they may not have much respect for it. They might need a little more “firmness” and follow-through from you to drive home the point.
The other thing I wonder is that since you are a conflict avoider and have a tendency to compromise, plus a load of guilt over the effects of your divorce on your kids, that maybe you are trying to be their friend more than their parent? Perhaps the kids don’t see the divorce as cleanly as you do. Perhaps they still see enmeshment between you and your ex, and still see you and your ex as the true core family and your current wife as just a passing phase. I would also guess that part of their attitude has to come from you, that even though you “lay down the law,” your kids see you as the primary violator of that law.
Do your kids tell their friends’ families about your wife and her behavior, or do they draw a line in what they tell non-family members? Maybe it would help to not think of yourself as a mediator. To me that means you are uncommitted to either side, i.e., one foot out the door. I’m sure your wife sees that too. Maybe better to just take sides with your wife and side with her against all other “enemies.” Then tell your kids to draw boundaries like they do with their friends.
E.g., that W went to a Buddhist retreat, that me and W were arguing loudly, that W spent money on DD5 but doesn't take them shopping anymore).
One last point, do you think your kids could use a little validation, just as your wife could? Perhaps they are feeling insecure too, which causes them to complain like this? Giving your kids security doesn’t mean having to be neutral regarding your wife and your ex.
Thanks for the post, Cobra. I'll think about this. I know my oldest tells his girlfriend everything, but I don't really care about that. It's the telling things directly to their mom that bothers me. I usually stop them when they start ragging about their mom. I offer suggestions of other people they could talk to, but I tell them that, unless something dangerous or risky is going on over there, it is not really my business, and that I'm sure their mother would appreciate it if they wouldn't tell me about these kinds of things, the same way I appreciate it when they don't share non-dangerous/risky stuff with their mom.
Let me refocus the thread, here.
I have not yet sent W the email. I have an appointment with my C this afternoon, and I'm likely going to show it to him first. I thought more about the "confrontational" nature of it, and I am comfortable with its current tone.
I offer suggestions of other people they could talk to, but I tell them that, unless something dangerous or risky is going on over there, it is not really my business, and that I'm sure their mother would appreciate it if they wouldn't tell me about these kinds of things, the same way I appreciate it when they don't share non-dangerous/risky stuff with their mom.
I think this is the right way to phrase things, that is, the right way for someone who clearly understands and appreciates proper boundaries and respect of others. I’m not trying to imply your kids are disrespectful, but you “tone” is not leaderly, and certainly not commanding. It is mediating. No one HAS to follow a mediator, and it seems your kids are choosing not to. I think the stakes are a little higher here. Your kids MUST follow certain rules of conduct or things will get worse, or at least won’t get better. Think about telling them what you WANT them to do, not what you would appreciate them doing. That is the stick. Give them a carrot to show them you love them, it’s just their behavior that needs to change. Leave the “appreciate” talk for Christmas presents. This is a boundary issue.
I'm interested to see what your counselor recommends for the letter, knowing your history better than we.
I'm interested to see what your counselor recommends for the letter, knowing your history better than we.
Actually, the board, in a collective sense, knows my history pretty darn well. The only clear advantage the C has is that he has consulted with our MC and with my wife's former C.
