Back when we came up with the housecleaning arrangement, in the MC's office, the MC said to W, "and, if you find several things that you don't like about the way he cleaned that week, you should pick one, and only one, and tell him that." She used to be pretty good at following this guideline, but there are times when it seems like she just gets on a rant and starts listing. (Kind of like me, except I rant to you folks)
I find this advice to be so... off.
What in heaven's name would be the purpose of continuing to set you up as being "on trial" with the Mrs as the judge & jury?
Does she have her list of *daily* household chores? Does she do them everyday and do you get to critique them?
Does MrsHD have a list of things that you want from her that she's supposed to be working on as well?
Does she have her list of *daily* household chores? Does she do them everyday and do you get to critique them?
She has her household duties, and she does them like clockwork. If I felt like it, I could critique them. I don't, because I don't care about the kind of household chores we're talking about here: cleaning. The MC, almost as an afterthought (and with, if I recall correctly, a bit of a wry smile), said that I, likewise, could pick out one thing to criticize.
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Does MrsHD have a list of things that you want from her that she's supposed to be working on as well?
If you go WAY back in my threads, you will find our lists. Mine included "tell me about the things I do right, and the things you appreciate in me" "Respect my boundaries" "Be a loving, caring role model for your stepkids" "relate to me as an adult" "try to understand why touching/physical affection is important to me" "make love with me". Her list included "manage your ex-wife" "take time to do things right" "join me in a spiritual exploration - become more interested in your own journey" "stay within budget" "follow through on agreements" "don't make demands of me" "respect my needs for space" "be confident in my love for you". She has actually improved a bit on the telling me about things I do right. Respecting boundaries? Yeah, for the most part - when this was an issue, the boundary she kept disrespecting was that I didn't want her to try to talk with me after I was asleep. Loving role model to stepkids? She has all but given up on caring for any of their well-being, for which she blames their mother. Despite the fact that my ex poisons the kids' minds against W, she gave up on them shortly after this list. She doesn't relate to me as an adult when she's angry or upset with me. She touches me when she's feeling happy, or when she realizes I haven't tried to touch her for a week or so, but still, the touching never crosses the line into anything sensual. Making love? Nope.
Have I done the things on her list? You know, the one thing on her list that I thought I'd never accomplish was the "spiritual journey" thing. Now, I've done it, and couldn't be happier. I really like the new church we attend, and, as noted in earlier posts, she seems a bit threatened by it. I "manage" my ex, even though W's definition of "manage" has swung from "I don't want to hear anything about her" to "keep me updated on any dealings/conversations with her". I've stayed within budget. For the most part, I do things "right", although, as noted, we may differ on that definition. Follow through on agreements? Yep, e.g. the house cleaning agreement. The "don't make demands" and "give me space" I think I've done. She likely sees my bringing up the sex issue as "making demands" of her, but read it yourself and tell me what the demand is. I could say that I missed the "be confident in my love for you" item, but, when I think about it logically, I think she does feel love for me, in her own way. It just differs from my way.
So there you have our two lists. She later added two items, and I have admitted problems with complying with both of them. "Be honest with me...don't omit things" and "don't make assumption about what W wants or needs."
Oh, and here's my draft (unsent) response to her email: Dear W, Thanks for your candid response. Your email has been on my mind a lot recently, but I needed it to sit for awhile before responding. You said that I had a choice regarding whether to be happy with who you are and what you are willing to do. I'm trying to understand what, if anything, you are willing to do, or to agree to, with regard to this subject. The reason I ask is because your email is pretty clear about what you are not willing to do: you are not willing to participate in any sort of schedule ("or required number") with regard to making love with me.
I hear your frustration with me in your second paragraph, yet I will continue to ask you about this issue. I had stopped, for a long time, and when I brought it up last month you seemed surprised that I was still pursuing it, as if I had given up on wanting to make love with my wife. Plus, if there is one thing I've learned from you and from your chosen religion, it is that we, both separately and as a couple, are ever-changing, like a river. I do not want to assume that your opinion is static, whether it's your opinion on sex, desserts, or religion. Love, Hairdog
Your list has all to do with soothing your emotions, her has not one speck of emotionality to it. Your lists are similar to what my wife and I first drew up long ago, except that hers centered around the kids. Nothing about what she wanted to make her happy, rather hiding her needs behind those of the kids.
Yeah, for the most part - when this was an issue, the boundary she kept disrespecting was that I didn't want her to try to talk with me after I was asleep.
Another crack in her shell, perhaps?
As for your letter….. well…. It sounds a little confrontational, don’t you think? Puts her on the spot. I know that sounds contradictory to what I have been saying, but I do not propose picking a fight, just not backing down from one.
Perhaps this letter should lay out the bigger objectives on where you want to go. To me, that means defining the broader, more general goals, something she can easily agree to. To further my idea of talking right past her defenses and touching on things closer to her heart, how about something like the following. Bear in mind that a lot of what I wrote may be pure BS, but she doesn’t know that. She has no idea what is going on in your mind. So let her make the assumption that you think she has been trying really hard to be a good wife. Sure, she will think you are off your rocker, but she might start to look to see in herself what you claim to be seeing. That kind of introspection can’t be all bad.
Dear W,
Thanks for your heartfelt response. I can see within your words how much you want a loving and caring marriage, and how much you truly love me. I am touched. Your email has been on my mind a lot recently, but I needed it to sit for awhile before responding. I can tell that you are a little hesitant with letting the depth of your love for me come out, so let me proposed the following:
That we both make an effort to be honest and compassionate in expressing our love and concern for one another, and that we put those loving thoughts foremost in our mind each day.
That we each try to find ways to understand and respect one another on ever deeper levels and commit to our journey together, knowing that our exploration is as a team.
That we find new ways to soothe and support each other as we face our fears through the trials and tribulations of everyday life as we journey forth to seek the happiness and security we both want.
Because I care for you I am trying to become more of the man you want and deserve. I ask for your guidance to help me in my growth, just as I know you have tried so hard to become the loving, compassionate, but strong wife that I so want. I admire the efforts you have made and the patience you have shown, especially after so much hardship that you have had to bear over the years. Your introspection of your hurts and fears gives me the confidence to provide the strength you deserve in a husband. Plus, if there is one thing I've learned from you and from your chosen religion, it is that we, both separately and as a couple, are ever-changing, like a river. I do not want to assume that your opinion is static, whether it's your opinion on sex, desserts, or religion.
No. Why do you think I might be? I just went back and read your excellent posts. Nothing in them with which I disagree, or to which I need to respond. Just assume (assuming is okay with me, as long as it's a positive assumption) that I appreciate and value your opinions and observations. Unless, of course, your talking trash about the Jayhawks, who totally ruled last weekend. In other words, as long as you're not Burgbud, I generally read your posts and nod, approvingly.
Sorry Cobra, but my W can smell bullsh*t a mile away. This post would peg her bs-o-meter by the end of the third sentence. I know, because I've written stuff like it before, and I totally WAS being honest. She doesn't like or want any sugar coating. She would read a sentence like I ask for your guidance to help me in my growth, just as I know you have tried so hard to become the loving, compassionate, but strong wife that I so want.and would call it self-serving pablum. I know her.
I'm not insulting your words, my friend. And certainly not the meaning behind the words. I'm just saying that it's not going to fly with her.
And frankly, what's so wrong about being a "little confrontational" and putting her on the spot? If she thinks she's being put on the spot, she can respond to it by being open and honest, or by lashing out, or however she wants. I don't think it's that confrontational, anyway. Come on, dude, you asked me to strap on some balls, now let me swing them around a bit.
Women say they lose desire because their men are financially irresponsible. But what most people don't realize is that becoming financially irresponsible is how men respond to fridgid spouses. I heard that on TV. So which normally happens first? My bet is that it is the loss of desire that happens first.
cobra, your letter is too wishy-washy and non-specific. So not congruent with the hard line you preach. Hd's original is much cleaner and clearer. Once the specific question is added.
HD, I asked if you were ignoring me because you have been responding directly to everyone's posts except mine. If that just means you agree with me... okay.
cemar wrote
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But what most people don't realize is that becoming financially irresponsible is how men respond to fridgid spouses.
WTF?
I guess there's your license to buy that sailboat, hd. He11, buy TWO.
