I had to cross this bridge with my W too, though not in regard to money but with the kids. My wife did have a lack of trust in my abilities as a father, but not because of anything I did, but because of the difference in our philosophies coupled with her FOO based fears. In essence, she was holding me responsible and making me pay the price for her issues. I see the same thing going on with MrsHD.
HD does not help his case any by being irresponsible. ADD or not, he can and MUST address all her concerns if he wants to truly disarm those defenses of hers. IT iis just like Heather selling her truck. It doesn’t matter whether Mrs HD’s concerns are valid or not, she is going to hold on to them until he addresses them.
Once he does however, she will not have much to hang her hat on. She will try to come up with new excuses. This is where I put my foot down and told my W she was not respecting me and was trying to control me. She said she did not trust me to make the right decision, but I told her that as an adult, I have the right to make WRONG decision if I so choose. Her idea of right may not be mine. For her to use such a defense is to take away of right of free will and that is just going way too far.
Hairdog, there is a sound logical basis in this argument that you CAN put up to your wife, but you need to address your past errors first.
So on the tail end of HD getting an open, honest email from his W, his response is to split the joint checking accounts and reclaim his territory... for what reason?
And why is it that he has to reclaim his manly authority by cleaning less and standing up to Mrs. HD BEFORE he decides to start saving for a sail boat? Or before he decides, instead, to take sail boat lessons, or maybe even rent a sail boat for the weekend? Because she may decide and judge that it is irresponsible? Oooohhhh....
Right, because he has to become responsible in a way SHE deems fitting.
That's the whole dam problem to begin with, guys.
I'm not suggesting that HD go out an blow their life savings... but if he makes a move, any move, right now, that changes their accounts, routines, and practices, without placing the impetus on himself, it is going to appear as if HD is punishing Mrs. HD because she has been honest about telling HD she doesn't want to have sex with him.
And why is it that he has to reclaim his manly authority by cleaning less and standing up to Mrs. HD BEFORE he decides to start saving for a sail boat? Or before he decides, instead, to take sail boat lessons, or maybe even rent a sail boat for the weekend? Because she may decide and judge that it is irresponsible? Oooohhhh....
Probably because she has no respect for him right now. Going off and doing the sailboat lessons, while great for HD's GAL, is not necessarily going to improve the M. Look at Choco and his W, his W has her own interests, goes to gym all the time, seems totally disconnected from Choco, how has that helped improve Her R/M with Him? HD needs to do something in direct correlation to his R with his W, that would include how she rules the roost, controls the R/M. So changing the dynamic with the house, the money, etc is a good first step.
I'm not saying that HD doesn't have to change the dynamics. I'm not suggesting that HD GAL without his W.
I'm suggesting A WAY for him to BEGIN to change the dynamics that does not place the SEX issue as THE CAUSE for change. The problems in the R have NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX. If he makes any kind of change now, on the tail end of Mrs. HD's email, that is exactly what it is going to APPEAR is happening, and Mrs. HD is going to go into flippin' battle mode.
If HD changes *anything* - sailing lessons, book club, his finances, his fathering, his housekeeping, or FITB, she is going to take it as nothing more than a response to the "sex thing" and any attempt by HD to raise his head above the status quo is going to send her over the edge.
IMO, sex should be taken totally off the table at this time.
So much of what HD has posted regarding his wife has been her reactions to falsehoods & half truths from him. He has chosen to lie to her on many occasions rather than stand up for himself in a mature way and deal with her anger at the time.
He has tried to jump through numerous hoops over the years, but those actions don't deal with what I see as a major root cause of their relationship disfunction.
HD needs to start respecting himself enough to *be* himself, unapologetically and likewise he needs to earn back her original respect. The relationship is not going to change based on more words or more acquiescence on HD's part. It's time for calm, firm, planned action.
Hmmmm. This is interesting to me. I guess I don't see where my advice to HD is all that much different than anyone else's... except that I have brought up a very specific thing HD could do that I know he has a passion for.
Can I ask you something? I'm not being argumentative here... but I remember when NOP started his 'push.' For the first 12 months or so... you all went to a schedule... and he was still frustrated. You all were doing Nookie... but still... he was seeking 'passion.' Then... in his 'Return to Passion' thread... things really changed for him... you wanted to explore your sexuality. Remember?
I remember him (and this was the very biggest change **I** saw in him) coming to the realization that YOU had your own needs, your own passions... he gradually began to understand that... he began to partake in YOUR life, even though what you were doing wasn't necessarily something he would choose for himself.
To me... and I could be wrong, so correct me please... this is when things began to change for you all. I KNOW you had some things that hit you right between the eyes... and I saw in NOP... at least in a delayed way... some things that hit HIM right between the eyes... that he, in his first 18 months of posting... never really got.
There's a question here... it's coming.
I'm wondering... if you can think back for me... just because I am curious... do you remember how it came about that you... found the... hmmmmm.... desire? want? impetus?... to explore your sexuality? I know it was not just from scheduled sex. NOP changed. What changed that you responded to?
He lost the anger. I know that. He became kind. It was over a period of time. Did he separate your finances? Did he all of a sudden become 'in your face?'
I'm just remembering... and I could be very wrong... but I'm remembering a subtle shift... and it seems to me that it came on the tail end of a realization on his part.
I agree with MrsNOP. Given the limited history I now understand about HD and his wife, MrsHD already considers him irresponsible when it comes to money, and probably in other areas as well. I wouldn't advise HD to do anything right now that might be viewed as irresponsible, as that would just make things worse.
I think MrsHD sees HD as another responsibility, another person to take care of in addition to her kid(s?) and not as an equal. This is definitely a desire killer. She just won't be very interesed in having a SL with someone she doesn't respect as an equal partner in the M.
I agree that the focus should not be on the SL, but on problems in the R that led to the poor SL. Unless those problems are resolved, the SL will never improve.
Corri, finances & respect were never an issue in our relationship, so we didn't have to establish boundaries in regards to money or respect.
NOP's issue was anger and when Michelle pointed out to him that he needed to get rid of it, he did. So, if there is a comparison it would be NOP's anger toward me to HD's financial responsibilities to his wife.
"In your face" denotes anger and agression to me, so that doesn't ring true to our situation. What he did do is make it very clear that this issue was not going to go away. We dealt with it almost *daily*.
Once NOP dealt with his anger, it threw our relationship out of the balance it had been in. I couldn't keep excusing/blaming the state of our relationship on NOP's anger toward me - that particular issue had been diffused.
Oddly enough, I began to have an issue with anger. It's damn difficult to not notice that the dynamics of the relationship have taken a detectably different turn. It made *my* contributions to the problems more obvious. Once that occurred, it started a positive feedback loop. One person is enough to unbalance the status quo. The other spouse will start to respond/fight and leave or start to respond/fight and work on the problems.
Once both spouses acknowedge that there are indeed problems, once each spouse identifies what those issues are, then it's just a matter of cleanup.
This is how I see your situation and how I think you should approach it. It does parallel my sitch.
Mrs HD has created a view of the world based on her fears. This is self deception and is the basis of narcissism. That doesn’t mean she is narcissistic, but she sure has those tendencies. To self protect, I think she rationalizes disrespect for HD in order to remove any dependency on him. HD confirms her view of him when he drops the ball on his responsibilities, then compounds it by hiding the truth. She sees each lapse as confirmation of her suspicions that he can’t be trusted. To anyone else, they might simply see HD as a non-assertive, forgetful, ADD person.
MrsHD sees things clearly, though from her warped POV. As long as HD creates situations than confirm her views, he will have a hard time convincing her otherwise and therefore gaining any respect from her, much less taking the lead on anything. However, I also believe that even with the most reliable, trustworthy man, Mrs HD will still find reason to doubt him. Trust is not the issue. Self protection is. She will not give trust or respect because that would make her way too vulnerable. I believe Mrs HD is a case in which HD will have to take respect from her, not wait for her to give it to him. She will never give it.
That is why I think HD needs to explicitly address each grievance Mrs HD has. Show her how he is resolving it and will handle it going forward. Of course she will still not trust that he will continue such behavior in the future and therefore will not give him the benefit of the doubt. She can simply rewrite history or focus on some new problem, whatever she has to do to avoid giving trust. I think it is very important that HD get her to document what her complaints are, every single thing she can think of, no matter how small. I think it would also help to document why she thinks those things are important and how those things affect her ability to get close to HD. In the future, she will be using new excuses or deny the old excuses ever existed. So a journal is EXTREMELY important when dealing with someone like this. She will twist her memory and it will always be in her favor.
But back to my point… I believe that HD needs to directly address and resolve every single issue on the list. Then he needs to treat each one like is has been resolved and settled. He probably will not settled each issue the way she wants it settled. But as soon as she starts micromanaging his way of taking care of things, she opens herself to criticism and micromanagement by HD. She won’t go there. She has to self-protect.
At that point HD will have effectively called her bluff on the particular issue and disarmed it as an excuse to avoid intimacy. This does not mean he has to go to great lengths either. But I do think he needs to acknowledge and address each problem individually. Otherwise she will keep it as an excuse. The goal is to remove all her self imposed obstacles until she has nothing left to hold between them except herself.
Another real possibility is that after HD does all this, she still says she does not trust him. No reason, no explanation, that is just how it is and how she feels, and she won’t listen to him telling her to feel otherwise. This is where the counselor comes in handy. A third party will be needed to break the logjam of who is right and put the spotlight on her and her unreasonable position.
HD will have to become much more assertive in order to “take” respect. As he settles each grievance, I think he should take on indignation at any mention that they are still an issue. If she challenges this, she will open herself to the same challenge from HD. I am betting she won’t go there. Remember, her primary need is self protection.
As all this is going on, I also believe HD should do everything he can to let MrsHD know that he is trying to help her, that he is on her side and fighting to open her up emotionally. I see no reason why HD should not say those very words to her. There is no reason to keep her fears hidden in the closet, it just enables her. Tell her you know she is scared, and you are going (not trying) to pull her out, open her heart, and love her. Address her BS defensive system head-on, out in the open. Let her know that you are aware of her fears and you are what she needs to come back to the emotional world. Talk about it all the time.
I believe she will hear this loud and clear, but she will not let on at all. This is the basis of my whole strategy for you, that she truly wants to open up, to trust, and to be love and care for, but that she is just scared. If there is any truth to this, she will not leave you, even when you push. She needs the relationship to stay in limbo, right where it is now. That is safest place for her. She knows you are there, in the house, helping with daily tasks, but without her having to open up. She has overloaded herself at work in order to feel more in control of her life. She has not yet come to fully realize how much she needs you and all you do for her, but she probably has an idea. The current arrangement is the ideal situation for her. Moving away from this will be overwhelming and scary for her. Losing you will be even scarier. I don’t think she will leave if you are fixing yourself, fighting for the marriage and telling her how much you are fighting for her.
By the way, I do think you need to drop the emphasis on sex. She will not take that as evidence of your love and commitment to her, but as an escalation of the power struggle. Until you can address the underlying issues, sex will be threatening to her. It represents a breach to her defenses. I also think a large expenditure will be seen as an escalation. I don’t think it is an issue of her shifting into battle mode, she is always in battle mode and has been for years.
I agree with MrsCAC4 that MrsHD treats HD as a child. I don’t think that is by accident. The more she can consider him a child, the less reason to respect him and trust him, and the more reason to maintain her defenses against vulnerability.
HD, you two have been in counseling for some time. Identification of the issues should be mostly done by now. If this is not so, then perhaps she does not want to see them, (or you either). More of the same counseling will not change that. You’ve got to push this relationship off center. But be sure you push in the right direction, not too hard, not too soft.
First, a little housekeeping: Mrs.cac4, my situation with regard to kids is that I have three kids from a prior marriage (2 boys, ages 17, 15, and 1 girl, 11), and my W and I adopted our 5 year old daughter from China when she was 1 1/2 years old. I have custody of the older three kids from Wednesday evening until Saturday/Sunday morning (it alternates, weekly).
Second: Corri, my dear friend, I got a little emotional reading your suggestion about buying a sailboat. Partially, because you know about my passion for sailing and have remembered it. Partially, because it's the time of year when I used to be getting my boat ready and putting it in the lake, and I still remember the excitement of it. Unfortunately, there's no room in my life for a boat right now. Money and time are the culprits. With upcoming college expenses and with my current responsibilities at home and work, there's just no time. When I do get my boat, I want to do it right. But thanks for the idea, regardless.
Third: what a cluster-fark of conflicting ideas/advice this topic has become! I don't know whether to scratch my watch or wind my butt. I think everyone has made some valid points, and, of course, thank you all. Here are some of my thoughts: Mrs.cac4 - your (and others) views about the type of fear my W has with relationships/intimacy/vulnerability has been of great help to me. I find myself thinking about her as the enemy, getting angry, and then coming back to your analysis of her email and trying to be more compassionate. It helps.
blackfoot: your post was a great mix of positive spin, practical considerations, motivation, and, of course, humor. Your (and others') observation that her CHOICES are part of what's behind the current situation helped me over the weekend. Of course, it's also part of why I'd start to get angry with her, but that's okay.
Mrs.Nop (and Cobra, too): your post(in response to Corri's boat suggestion) was hard to read. At first, I found myself saying, "no way...I am not irresponsible!" Then, the decompensating type 6 in me said, "I am an incompetent jerk, what a burden I am." Currently, I'm somewhere in the middle. I know I made some costly financial moves early on. To some extent, we are still trying to catch up on some of them (e.g. inadequate funding of college accounts). Have I made any financial missteps recently? Probably not for the last two or more years. Part of this is because W controls the budget. Part of it is because I'm very aware of finances.
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She has assigned household duties to him and calls him at work to chew him out when the bathroom towels aren't hung just so, so she has no respect for him as an autonomous adult.
Division of the household duties was an agreement we reached in MC, at least with regard to cleaning. My part in this issue (general household stuff, and autonomous adult) occurs when I fail to follow through on a responsibility to which I've agreed or committed. I'm doing better at this, but I still drop the ball from time to time.
With regard to her view of my value as a parent, it seems to run in cycles. Sometimes she thinks I'm doing great, sometimes she thinks I'm not. Lately, I've been pretty confident in my own abilities as a father, and maybe because of this, she's been less critical in this area.
Deceptions? Yep. Guilty as charged. This is a habit I got into with my ex, and it's hard to break. I don't want to overstate it, though. While the "sin" of lying is big, the lies/omissions have, of late, been about minor things. I realize, however, that it doesn't matter. I just need to tell her the truth, no matter what.
Cobra: your most recent post really hit home. My W's view of the world...yeah. Your observation about how her treatment of me, and our current situation involves her "self protection" is similar to, for example, mrs.cac4's view of her.
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I believe that HD needs to directly address and resolve every single issue on the list. Then he needs to treat each one like is has been resolved and settled.
How do you suggest I "directly address" these issues? Just a statement, like "I know you have problems with the way I have done x, y, and z. I see my part as a, b, and c." Resolved? Help me understand. I guess I am having trouble figuring out how W is going to see anything as "resolved and settled." There is no way that I can, after that point, lead a "perfect" life. I will drop a ball occasionally. I may forget a meeting. I may blow off cleaning the house one Sunday because I was consumed with doing yard work instead. I may slip up and omit telling her something because I decide that I'd rather take a chance with her not finding out about it, than listening to her complain about something. And then, she will cite my current behavior, dredge up my similar behavior from the past, and we are (in her mind) back at square one.
I've been there before. I've thought to myself, "you know, Hairdog, you haven't farked up recently. You've done all your duties, done them well, haven't omitted or deceived. Haven't misspent. She seems happy." And then, if I initiate, there's always some other reason (back to the 'tired and stressed' or countless others).
So yeah, I'm willing to consider your plan, Cobra. I think, though, that it's more because I see my DD5 as being the one who suffers most if W and I split up, than because I have any expectation of anything resembling "success" with it.
Finally, this weekend was average. We had tickets to a jazz concert Saturday (which was awesome) and we went out to dinner before it. We did not discuss the email exchange, but I was prepared to tell her that I want to respond to her email, but that I want to do it in writing. And, my response to her will be, basically, to ask for some clarification. She has said fairly clearly what she is NOT willing to do, or not willing to agree to. What, if anything, is she willing to do/try/agree?
Some of you think I need to drop the sex issue. I don't want to do that. I am at a place right now where I am very vulnerable to infidelity. And not because there are any immediate prospects on the scene. I'm just about to explode. Emotionally. Physically. I need to know how far she's willing to push this "unwillingness". Because, my compassion for her childhood, for her fears, for her sexual rejection, is not without limits. I think the crucible is here.
