Hmmm...My first thought was that MsHD actually sounds like a fairly reasonable person in her own words. You know, the tone of this exchange isn't all that different than the tone of the exchange that I had with my H recently except that my response was pretty much "Okay, then let's move on.". One thing my H brought up (I think due to the fact that he spent most of the two weeks he was home "sick" watching the international movie channel) was that he considered whether he would be comfortable with a "French" arrangement, basically an open marriage. He said that he decided that he was too "American" to deal with that. (Further odd note: He also said that if I became a lesbian it would 'kill' him but he laughed when he said it. Maybe he just said it to be mean.) Clearly there would be no benefit for me in having an open marriage because why in the h*ck would I want to keep taking care of high maintenance H? Anyway, my point regarding your sich is that I think that you should do what NOP indicated but the other Schnarchian option would be to do your own version of the "bar anecdote". Because you are a good friend I will help you out. Here is your reply:
Quote:
Dear W, I am sorry that we have reached such an impasse. I respect your frank and honest reply. I love you and appreciate all that is good about our relationship. However, that does not negate my need to be a sexual person. I suggest that we agree to disagree on this important matter and work towards a sophisticated and mature compromise. My good friend Mojo, a book dealer, who I met on the BB where I have been working on my end of this issue will be in town on August 24th for the YMCA book sale. I will be meeting her for drinks at (someplace nice like the Morgan) and possibly more to follow. Please update your calender.
Mostly Platonic but Husbandly Love, HD
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'll leave the timing up to you, and again, I do like Burg's advice to wait a smidgen (like maybe until Monday?), but just speaking for myself, here is how I would respond if my wife wrote me:
Quote:
I appreciate sharing this with me. As I said to you, approximately one month ago, I do not think I will ever want to make love on a weekly basis, at least not while we are both working full-time and raising a family, and even after that, there are no guarantees. At least right now, though, I am too stressed and tired much of the time. If I did so simply to satisfy your needs, it wouldn’t be making love, at least not from my perspective. For me, making love is an act that we both do willingly. While I might try things to make myself ‘willing’ more often than I would if left to my own devices, putting some sort of schedule or required number of times to make you feel loved isn’t going to work for me.
Do you remember talking about this? I get frustrated because it seems to me we keep having this same discussion over and over. You say you ‘get it’, but if so, why do we keep coming back to this? If this is a need you have, so be it, but I can’t satisfy it – I just can’t. I do love you, but if you can’t be happy with who I am and what I’m willing to do, that is your choice, and I respect it. I think you need to do some soul searching, and if you can’t be happy in this relationship, then we both need to move on. I am tired of this – Love, MsHdog
My reply would be:
" _________,
I'm not looking for guarantees; I'm looking for your sincere effort. Effort to not just understand that "this is the way Hairdog feels," but honest effort in trying to at least meet me halfway.
I need to feel loved, not "understood." I've told you 100% honestly what I need to make myself feel loved. Like it or not, this is who I am, and I won't apologize for being this way.
If making love 1x/week is too much for you to give me right now, then please let me know what would be reasonable, that you can commit to, to demonstrate to me that you're at least willing to work at saving our marriage.
I think you'll find me to be more flexible than you think.
I don't think you should continue the convo with your W, HD. I also see it as very optimistic. I'd let things lie.
I would not yet follow NOP's advice. That is too confrontational for your particular W. She would go into full battle mode.
If I were you, and I am dead serious... I'd go out and buy a sail boat. I don't care if you can afford it right now or not. FIND a way to afford it.
The reason I am saying this is: your W wants to ML with you willingly... she seems to very much want to experience desire with you, but sees her life as too full of stress and fatigue to do so. In her mind, there is nothing about her life that she can change in order to get to that level of desire with you, and still maintain her life as it is.
You guys are stuck in routine (aren't we all). With a few exceptions here and there, one day largely looks like the next. Of COURSE she is stressed and tired... we all get stressed and tired with monotany.
She needs passion. So do you. Introduce passion. She may get pissed as hell at you for buying the boat... but she isn't going to divorce you over it... not like she would if you keep pressing on the sex issue.
You need to find ways to break her routine without making her feel threatened. One of the reasons I was LD was because I was BORED with life. Instead of finding productive ways to end my boredom, I created DRAMA (cut my H off sexually... that was nice drama, wasn't it? Certainly got his attention).
We all want to be engaged actively with life. You two are not engaged actively with life. Do something completely unexpected... the reason I am suggested the sail boat is because you are passionate about that... and I think your passion for that would be transmitted to your wife (once she gets over being pissed that you spend the money. But she will get over it... and you are going to start making her feel stuff again.
I think Corri's suggestion is good too. I think anything that would break the routine and show a bit of "selfish" initiative on your part might work. (Besides, after I made my suggestion, I got this scary vision of me and MsHD in a b*tch-fight in the bar of the St.Louis "Morgan". She had one of those big plastic combs like everybody carried in their back pockets in the late 70's and, man, those babies sting.).
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Corri, IMO before passion there must be respect. Also, if I remember correctly, finances have been an issue since early in the marriage. HD deceived MrsHD about the amount of debt he brought into the marriage, and his checking account got out of hand. Which brings us to why MrsHD is in complete charge of the pursestrings and treats HD like a teenager on an allowance.
She currently has no respect for him.
Her career is more intense, so she doesn't hold his career in high regard.
He didn't handle his finances in a fully responsible way, so she doesn't hold his decision making capabilities in high regard.
She has assigned household duties to him and calls him at work to chew him out when the bathroom towels aren't hung just so, so she has no respect for him as an autonomous adult.
She has little to no respect for him as a father without her overbearing guidance, hence her corrections of him ranging from pudding in the fridge to getting her permission before he can get his daughter from the church nursery to telling him that he can't take his daughter around his ex-wife - with little regard for the juggling that occurs when sharing co-parenting duties with his ex.
She has caught him in several deceptions, so she has no trust for him.
I don't think the suggestion to get control of his finances was prep for divorce as much as trying to get him in a position of being an equal adult in this relationship with the maturity to handle his checking account and finances well. To get him in charge of something, since she is currently in charge of *everything*.
If he made some large purchase without her input, I think she would view that as that HD being deceptive and financially immature.
I totally agree with the idea that he needs to carve out some HD time/activities that aren't under her purview.
I'm not talking about HD going off and 'doing' HIS thing... though I cannot see where that wouldn't hurt.
So maybe the sail boat is a bit out of league for him... but I see busting routine as a major 'take charge' avenue HD can pursue. There is nothing more sexy than a man with a purpose... with a passion in his life. He'll go do it whether Mrs. HD goes with him or not... but the passion that fills his life will overflow to her. Right now, Mrs. HD IS his passion, and she feels the burden of that. Her schedule is already 'full.' We all know that Mrs. HD needs to drop something out of her life to make room for other things, but she is the type of woman, who, if you take her head on, will dig in her heels.
The trick with Mrs. HD is if it appears to be all her idea. If HD lets Mrs. HD control his passions, whether that is somehow tied to money or chores or whatever, she will feel NO PASSION for him.
HD can find a passion, and through calm consistancy, stick to it, no matter what she does/says, etc., and ask her to go do it with him. Respect will build from there. Maybe buying the sail boat isn't it... but 'passion' breaks routine and monotony. IMHO. There is nothing worse for an R than boredom.
Like BF... he does extreme sports. It is his passion. Women find that very attractive. When he 'gives up' his passion for the woman, they begin to lose respect for him, for in so doing, he is placing them in a position of 'controlling' him, his purpose, his passion.
This example may be a bit 'extreme,' for I don't see HD going out and riding motorcyles or skydiving, or whatever...
...So maybe the sail boat is a bit out of league for him... but I see busting routine as a major 'take charge' avenue HD can pursue. There is nothing more sexy than a man with a purpose... with a passion in his life. He'll go do it whether Mrs. HD goes with him or not... but the passion that fills his life will overflow to her.
nice, romantic idea, but it doesn't always work that way. This can also quickly become another source of discontent, i.e. "HD spending too much time on his passion". mine isn't a boat; but it does say "land yacht" on the side of it.
I had to cross this bridge with my W too, though not in regard to money but with the kids. My wife did have a lack of trust in my abilities as a father, but not because of anything I did, but because of the difference in our philosophies coupled with her FOO based fears. In essence, she was holding me responsible and making me pay the price for her issues. I see the same thing going on with MrsHD.
HD does not help his case any by being irresponsible. ADD or not, he can and MUST address all her concerns if he wants to truly disarm those defenses of hers. IT iis just like Heather selling her truck. It doesn’t matter whether Mrs HD’s concerns are valid or not, she is going to hold on to them until he addresses them.
Once he does however, she will not have much to hang her hat on. She will try to come up with new excuses. This is where I put my foot down and told my W she was not respecting me and was trying to control me. She said she did not trust me to make the right decision, but I told her that as an adult, I have the right to make WRONG decision if I so choose. Her idea of right may not be mine. For her to use such a defense is to take away of right of free will and that is just going way too far.
Hairdog, there is a sound logical basis in this argument that you CAN put up to your wife, but you need to address your past errors first.
