I am just curious...when you initiate are you timid? I can certainly understand being timid because of the attitude and rejection from your wife. But curious have you ever tried a more forceful approach to initiating? Like man woman it has been way to long get upstairs I am going to fu** your brains out? LOL Maybe that one is to much. But have you ever tried anything like that? Just a more forceful kind of cocky approach?
Latest development. I sent my W an email this morning following a discussion/argument. Here it is, somewhat edited:
Quote:
Dear W, We DO need to talk/communicate more and more effectively with each other. I have always been better at expressing myself in writing, so I was actually heartened to hear that emails would be welcome.
First, I want to say that I do appreciate that you have been more receptive to and more forthcoming with physical affection recently. This is probably my principle "love language" and your hugs and kisses help me feel loved.
About a month ago I told you that I wanted to start making love again, and that, specifically, I wanted to make love with you once a week. This is important to me. Aside from the discussion we had about it that night, and the next day, it seems to me that this has gone unacknowledged. I feel ignored. Disregarded. Inconsequential.
This is me. This is me, telling you how I feel. I feel this way, in part, because it seems like my wants are not important to you.
You're right about me needing to tell you what's going on with me. I do let things build up until they become bigger problems than they need to be. This does nothing but damage to our relationship. It stops here. From now on, whether I say it to your face, tell it to you on the phone, or write it down in email, you are going to hear what's going on with me.
Dang. You're absolutely right. Having said what I just said, I already feel better. I feel hopeful. One of the guys at the meeting last night, in response to the question, "What makes a marriage work?" answered along the lines of "when something bothers me, I'll say to my wife, 'this bothers me....' and then, just by saying that, the problem goes away." His point was that voicing his feelings and being heard, was sometimes all it took. Another guy said, "manage conflict." He talked about resolving the conflicts he and his wife faced.
You are the most important woman in my life. I love you.
Hairdog
This is the response I got:
Quote:
I appreciate sharing this with me. As I said to you, approximately one month ago, I do not think I will ever want to make love on a weekly basis, at least not while we are both working full-time and raising a family, and even after that, there are no guarantees. At least right now, though, I am too stressed and tired much of the time. If I did so simply to satisfy your needs, it wouldn’t be making love, at least not from my perspective. For me, making love is an act that we both do willingly. While I might try things to make myself ‘willing’ more often than I would if left to my own devices, putting some sort of schedule or required number of times to make you feel loved isn’t going to work for me.
Do you remember talking about this? I get frustrated because it seems to me we keep having this same discussion over and over. You say you ‘get it’, but if so, why do we keep coming back to this? If this is a need you have, so be it, but I can’t satisfy it – I just can’t. I do love you, but if you can’t be happy with who I am and what I’m willing to do, that is your choice, and I respect it. I think you need to do some soul searching, and if you can’t be happy in this relationship, then we both need to move on. I am tired of this – Love, MsHdog
Thoughts, advice, commentary appreciated. I'm not sure what I plan to say, but I have a couple thoughts: At least she stayed on point. I appreciate that. I want some clarity on what she's "willing to do." I think it's clear that she is NOT willing to ML once a week.
My feelings are mixed. I'm glad that I "voiced" my feelings/wants. I'm feeling positive that we're communicating about something that is important to me. I'm frustrated and tired when thinking about how difficult and long the road ahead seems.
She's made her position crystal clear. It doesn't sound to me like she's willing to do anything... except move on if you won't drop this request. I don't see any room for negotiation.
You say the road ahead is long and difficult... but where do you see that road ultimately leading?
Edited to add:
Would she compromise on the frequency? Once a month?
First, kudos to you for writing the letter to your wife! You told her how you feel and that's just what she needs to hear.
Her statement about feeling too stressed and tired jumped out at me, because, honestly, I this were H and me and I was working FT with a kid, I could imagine feeling this way too.
So I'm wondering....is there anything that would make her feel less stressed and tired? Does she even know? Is she afraid to admit that she can't "have it all?" What does she truly want out of life? Does she even know?
Gotta run...I'll post again if I have other thoughts.
I guess I'm being more of a glass-half-full person today. I refuse to see a brick wall -- or if it's brick, I'm going to be a frickin' tank, and plow through, and it'll end up feeling like a speed bump.
I'm thinking about basically coming back with "I want to ML on a regular basis (once a week) because I need this to be a fully functional partner in this marriage. You've never seen me as a fully functional partner before, because, except for very early in the relationship, we've never had this. If you're not willing to give it a try for a few months, to see if it actually has an effect, let me know."
I like the idea of plowing through the brick wall. Choose your words carefully so as not to give her a lot of opportunity to go off in other directions.
"What do you mean I've never seen you as a fully functional partner? What is your definition of a fully functional partner? We've never had WHAT? I'm letting you know right now, that I don't want this and I don't want to hear about it again!"
See what I mean... keep the message simple and don't drag in the past no matter how appropriate it is. To her credit, she didn't attack your pov in her email. She allowed as how that's what you want and she respects it but you're not getting it from her. Remember, you don't have to justify your position. It needs no defending.
is there anything that would make her feel less stressed and tired?
I don't know the answer to this, but it is a good question to ask her. Frankly, I'm about at my limits of taking on additional duties to make her life easier around the house. I thought I was already doing that, and had been doing that for about the last three years.
As for "having it all", hold up a sec. This "tired and stressed" may be valid, in fact, I'm sure it is valid. But it just seems like the latest reason (a familiar one, to be sure) for her to not even ML once, not to mention once a week.
It's like the analogy of painting the house. You say, it sure would be nice to get the house painted. The painter shows up, starts prepping the house, and prepping, and prepping. Maybe gets a board or two painted. Then preps some more. Maybe doesn't show up for a week or two. You notice that the boards that have been painted are fading, and, dang, when was the last time the painter ever actually painted? You talk to him. He tells you about the importance of surface prep. He preps some more.
Don't you just want to see him paint the house? Make an effort beyond the nominal?
I feel like it's time to stand out there and grab his hand, put the brush in it, and show him what painting is like. When he sees how much happier the house owner is when some painting is getting accomplished, maybe he'll paint on his own. Either way, I'm tired of talking about the painting.
Slow down. This is just her initial response. Give her a couple of days to think about it...her position isn't going to harden any, and it might soften if she's left to her own devices. Right now you've pushed and she's pushed back, claiming her space. Given the opportunity to give up some of her space, rather than (as she perceives it) having her space taken from her, she may be more flexible than she appears right now.
What she said reflects her state of mind at the current moment and that's all. Give her a chance, in a couple of days, to say something like, "You know, I'd *like* to ML once a week, I'm just too tired and hassled to want to." That would be progress. Maybe there's no chance it will happen, but I'd vote for just standing still for a bit and seeing if she's capable of moving off center on her own a little.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
At least right now, though, I am too stressed and tired much of the time.
Doesn’t Harley recommend getting rid of the job, the house, the town if it interferes with the marriage?
If I did so simply to satisfy your needs, it wouldn’t be making love, at least not from my perspective. For me, making love is an act that we both do willingly.[b]
So she ties willingness to her anxiety levels and how tired she is? I can understand that, but it is not an excuse. I think it is a deflection because anxiety and tiredness are within her ability to control. Assuming these come from her job and she is willing to endure this, then it seems clear she has her job on a much higher priority than the marriage.
[b]While I might try things to make myself ‘willing’ more often than I would if left to my own devices, putting some sort of schedule or required number of times to make you feel loved isn’t going to work for me.
Makes sense by her logic.
Do you remember talking about this? I get frustrated because it seems to me we keep having this same discussion over and over. You say you ‘get it’, but if so, why do we keep coming back to this?
Because the ball is in her court. She will not validate your needs nor take action to resolve them. Keep the ball there. Keep the pressure on. Let her be uncomfortable. The heat has not been turned up high enough yet. This is just an attempt to get you to turn down the heat. I say turn it up instead.
If this is a need you have, so be it, but I can’t satisfy it – I just can’t.
BS. More like she doesn’t want to. The question is why.
I do love you, but if you can’t be happy with who I am and what I’m willing to do, that is your choice, and I respect it. I think you need to do some soul searching, and if you can’t be happy in this relationship, then we both need to move on.
Her past actions seem to contradict this, going by the examples you have given when she gets jealous.
I am tired of this –
Let her get more tired. You need more heat. She will get more reactive, angry, threatening, but she hasn’t quite reached the point where she has to choose. She is not in the crucible yet. She keeps sidestepping, trying to put you in there instead. Let her go in. Let her handle whatever guilt issues she has. Don’t rescue her.
My wife did the same thing. Plenty of controlled statements like this. In her mind she was setting boundaries to protect herself. What she did not realize was just what it was she was trying to protect. She thought she was trying to fend off attacks, pressure, anxiety which she felt coming from me. But she did not want to face her desire for the love and affection I was also trying to offer. This is the carrot you need to offer, for without it, her defenses make perfect sense.
I don’t think your wife has a clear idea of what she truly wants either. If she is like my wife, you are going to have to address her statements and defenses at the very core level of what she wants in life, that being love. She will have a hard time just admitting to this. Keep the pressure on this vulnerability. Bring up her fears of being loved and offer to protect her.
Her whole defensive system is based on completely ignoring that she has this need. Hence the rants against men, her turn to Buddhism. I say target the laser on her need to be loved. This will be very hard. I think you will need to get back into couples counseling. Tell your counselor to step it up a couple of notches.
