Some thoughts about spouses coming here and reading their SO's posts, based on my own sitch...
When I read H's sarcastic/negative posts (and honestly, many of them were) it was tough for me. I had to try to sift through the sarcasm and negativity to get the message behind it. I already mentioned that I had read other posts he'd written on another message board a couple of years earlier, so it wasn't a new experience for me.
I remember reading some of the posts here that were particularly hurtful and then thinking about cards he'd given me over the years. Sentimental fool that I am, I've kept them. I pulled them out and started reading. H is not an overly sentimental guy. Neither is he the type that would give me a card stating anything other than how he truly feels. He just wouldn't BS me in this way. SO, I thought, why would he give me these loving cards and then write about me in a not-so-loving way on the BB? Some of the cards and posts overlapped. I concluded that he must truly love me, must truly feel what the cards said, but is very hurt by the SSM, so he vents on the board.
I didn't make all those connections at first, but I continued lurking. As hurtful as it was to read, I was finding out things that he couldn't tell me. It was as close as I could get to having him talk to me and tell me how he felt. I was so starved for intimacy (yes I was starved too) that I'd take negative "attention" over none at all. I felt, at least he's talking!
I also read responses from other posters that were almost exactly what I'd wanted to say to him! That validated my feelings and gave me the courage to continue lurking.
There came a time when I felt comfortable telling him I'd been lurking. I felt he really needed to try to tell ME how he felt. Talking on the board has its place, but not at the exclusion of talking to the SO. But, because H started posting here and I then read the posts, we are now in a better place in the R, and are starting to talk to each other.
he's right because we do open up emotionally to one another.. I think one "has to open up" for progress to be made and for this forum to work. If people don't open up, how are the other readers going to know what was said rather than what was implied?
BTW, I agreed with the C, that some of the things that were talked about openly were out of line in some peoples eyes.
When I was in college, in the "sexually variant behaviors" class and the "Womes's Issues" class, what was discussed there was of a personal nature. We included the plumbing, biology, and mechanics of different people's R's/activities but included feelings, fantasies we had on a personal level, reactions, peoples motivation for doing some things, wrote papers about sexual dreams, and watched several different short, sexually explicit films, that included a Gay, lesbian, swingers, and marital improvement orientation.
A group of women went to a topless bar, observed and talked with some of the dancers.
To the C I mentioned earlier, might have thought all of that college work was walking on thin ice too. My opinion differs.
The college degree I was working on was in the Human Service field. Future clients included individual’s, some with many problems and a variety of alternative life styles.
Much of the college work was to learn, as individuals and peers, from various training materials and from each other's experiences. I consider much of this forum activity as, peers helping and learning from peers, along with the other resources mentioned in many of the posts.
We are trying to find ways to improve our M/R and I don't see that as violating trust. I am with you on that idea shmagic.
Not ...dreaming of a different life with someone on these boards. Right
Here is where I have some trouble. I modified what you posted to illustrate my rough spots.
dreaming/wishing my W was more like someone on these boards. I do wish but that isn't going to make it so.
I know, I or anyone can wish for many things. It isn't a crime to wish. At minimum levels, wishing isn't a problem. Excessive wishing can be a problem.
Conflict avoiders seem to be specially designed to fall into EAs.
You have things on your mind that you want to talk to somebody about, but you dread the thought of how your spouse might react to it. You meet someone that's willing to listen, doesn't freak out about whatever it is (maybe because she's not actually your partner and thus isn't threatened by any problems you may have), and you get addicted to the idea that someone "knows" you without judging you.
If your spouse catches wind of this and gets upset (as spouses are wont to do when you are emotionally connecting with someone else) you adopt the mindset that the spouse is not only unwilling to listen to your thoughts and problems without biting your head off (not that you gave her a real chance, you just assumed!) but is also bent on driving away anyone else that might listen you your thoughts and problems without biting your head off; from there it's a short leap to assuming that she's doing this out of pure spite and that she wants you to suffer a life without any emotional connections or companionship at all.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Conflict avoiders seem to be specially designed to fall into EAs. Crazy Eddie I tend to agree with you.
(not that you gave her a real chance, you just assumed!) Did you have any one poster or situation in mind Eddie?
On a real level, many of us have brought things up with our respective spouse and not much changes for the better. Their are the usual fights and head bitings, the "you did" so "they did/reacted", and sometimes the results are not nice to hear or to look at.
I don't see spite comming from my W, but I can imagine her feeling hurt and betrayed if she read some of my posts. I am trying and improving my M but sometimes the more I want the M to become, the further away I feel I am from reaching that goal.
Sometimes w/o the support and ideas discussed on this forum, I think I would have gone into deep-cave mode, given up, or just gone to the "mostly roommate" mode.
If you have read Hairdogs posts, his wife said the more he wanted a sexuall R with his W, the less interested she was because to her, he had to give up wanting sex before she was willing to improve their sexual R.
it's a short leap to assuming that she's doing this out of pure spite and that she wants you to suffer a life without any emotional connections or companionship at all. I don't feel any spite from my W, but see your point because people have a range of emotions. The non-posting spouse can feel from anger/revenge, to they wish they would have done more and want to make some big changes.
is there something to read about conflict avoiders and EA's -- I am definitely a conflict avoider and wondered if this really does ring true more often than not.
....Understand, that I can't, not be what I am I'm not the milk, and Cheerios in your spoon ~ Avril Lavigne ~ ..."Nobody's Fool"...
Crazy Eddie I doubt very much if my H was talking about his feelings to OW more he was lonely living away from home started going to dinner with her as business friends and it may be she talked to him about problems SHE was having and he connected with her. He felt unneeded at home unappreciated and here was someone who NEEDED him. He then decided he was falling in love with her and vice versa but was realistic enough to know they had no future together.
The reason most wives get upset is that they see the danger of an EA becoming a PA how do you think most PA start? It is the secrecy and lies that a W will be upset about. If my H met someone for dinner on business and told me about it that would not be an A even if he talked about his personal problems with her. Why assume that your W/P is not going to want to listen to your problems we're not mind readers. As for the person you're having the EA with of course it makes you happy that someone wants to be with you and doesn't judge you they don't see the real you. You are on your best behaviour with them not bad tempered or annoyed with lifes realities.
The wife catches wind of this emotional connection as you put it because (whether you realise it or not) you change and become withdrawn from her and you become MORE unhappy and it shows. Instead of looking elsewhere for the connection and affection you should be trying to rebuild that with your wife. Will read your previous posts from this one you could be my H. I would LOVE him to post on here he knows I do!
A spouse will never meet all of your needs. He saw nothing wrong with flirting...he felt that it was very healthy. He didn't even see anything wrong with a woman 'loving' another man, whom was not her spouse. Afterall, we have the capacity to love more than one child... more than one person.
However. The only way to do all of the above is to be very CLEAR and CERTAIN of your boundaries, to have radical honesty with your spouse, to RESPECT and ACKNOWLEDGE that the spouse may feel threatened, in some form or fashion, and to KNOW YOUR OWN LIMITS.
I asked him if that was playing with fire.
He said, 'absolutely, if you don't know Who You Are and What You Stand For.
Wow Corri, that is an interesting shrink. While I do not necessarily disagree in theory, I do wonder how that can actually work. The closest I have ever come with anything similar is with my friend's xH but then again I treated my friendship with him as exactly the same as with my friend. I loved that I could call their house (or while I lived there talk to either one) and felt that I did not change what I said. They were kind of like the same person for me and I knew that they would talk and whatever I said to one would be talked about with the other. And I certainly loved him in a friendship way.
The playing with fire response was too flip for me though. That's why I wrote that I purposely have kept myself very far away from the fire or the edge of the cliff. It sounds all well and good to say you need to know who you are and what you stand for BUT don't all people go through moments (if not days) of questioning here and there? I feel like I do know who I am and what I stand for but I still have times of self doubt which I consider normal and healthy! If you are right at the edge of the fire or cliff then normal expected circumstances can align too easily in my mind. Which is why I have to think to myself which would I rather risk - not developing a very close relationship with the member of the opposite sex OR destroying my marriage? For me that was an easy decision but I understand that others choose differently.
Another point for me is that disclosing personal issues to a member of the opposite sex rather than your spouse is different than doing the same thing with a friend of the same sex. The reason is that typically men and women view things differently so the interaction between you and the member of the opposite sex would be a replacement of your spouse while the same conversation with a same sex friend would still allow the conversation with your spouse to have significant value.
Just my feelings on the subject (which are admittedly strong!)
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I make similar comments to Corri. Read her reply to me. This was a theoretical exercise by her shrink to explore Corri's own boundaries, so it needs to be taken in context. It confused me too.
His point was not on judging whether something was appropriate or not. His point was... "how well do you know yourself? How far are you willing to go? What is acceptable within the context of your marriage? Do you even KNOW? If something DOES get out of hand... what will you do? Have you ever thought about it? If you can't handle something getting out of hand... why are you allowing it?"
His base recommedation: "Know thyself. Who Are You? What Do You Stand For? Where Is Your Line of Integrity?"
Cobra,
Yeah I did read it but I did not think it really addressed the issue I brought up as far as the fact that we all have our weak moments in life. I may know myself and what I stand for and have integrity but I still have weak moments. Do I want to have developed this close relationship with a man based on the times (90-99%) I am strong and assured only to have this fail me when a few things (self doubts, close contact with EA partner and maybe a moment of weakness on his end) line up on the same day? Just a personal question I think everyone should ask even if they do not have the same answer that I do.
And the other significant issue - My xH would have SWORN that he knew himself! He's not Buddhist or anything but since we were both reading some Eastern philosophy at the time he would be the one to actually throw that at me "YOU need to look inside yourself for happiness and truth". Not bad advice but extremely ironic when it comes out later that he is the one who needed that advice and not me.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I pulled them out and started reading. H is not an overly sentimental guy. Neither is he the type that would give me a card stating anything other than how he truly feels. He just wouldn't BS me in this way. SO, I thought, why would he give me these loving cards and then write about me in a not-so-loving way on the BB? Some of the cards and posts overlapped. I concluded that he must truly love me, must truly feel what the cards said, but is very hurt by the SSM, so he vents on the board.
