Display total trust and love for me and then proceed to hit me with the lighter shortly thereafter.
I totally dig that. When that happens early, you KNOW they're looking for the magic solution and you've been chosen as the next-in-line scapegoat to take the rap when it turns out there's only hard work, no magic.
It's not anything like therapy, but when a new client approaches me to raise money for them, I have to be wary of that "savior" complex that they try to stick on me. "Oh now all of our money problems are solved! We'll just get some of the free grant money!" I'm sure that at least one client I had about 20 years ago hired me to try to raise money for something that was pretty impossible just so that when it failed, he could go to his board and tell them they had to take the $$ out of reserves. Which they did. Today I wouldn't take on such a client, but back then I didn't know any better.
LFL, are you in a position to send clients elsewhere if you feel you are not right for them, or do you pretty much have to work with whoever comes through the door?
I guess if you answer this, it should be on your new thread.
Lou, What changed the dynamics is, I said to BB, keep it up, I am gone. Cobra When did this come about? This is the first I've heard. Good for you!!!
It was first said about 3 years ago, and many tines in between, but after BB didn't want much physical contact with me in Aug 06, some thanksgiving crap she got pissy about, then some of her hang-ups at Christmas time 06, feeling like "what is the use" and many ,many times of me backing off, and then almost giving up on ever having a sexual R with her, (I know too many “commas") her typical reconnect genes kicked in. Now she wants me to be in control more and asks why I don’t touch her as much and wants more physical contact.
Gees, BB drawing social security and me still wanting to neck? We have the ideal set up, no kids, why not?
What worked I believe is, so many times I felt like giving up, each one took hold a little more firmly. The detach feelings took hold so strongly that the thought of having 1/3rd of a pie fixed like I wanted it and liked, felt better than having a whole pie I didn't like.
A month ago when BB wanted to keep our "stuff envelopes appointment" instead of the MC appointment (it would have been easy to do both, but she doesn't like to semi-multi task) I just got to the point of thinking WTF, why bother. I could have told BB bye, said have a nice life with out feeling like I was dumping her, being mean to her, or resenting her for not doing more for the R or me.
I had less emotion going on in that week than when I had, selling an old car. I have sold many cars that I used to buy and repair for resale.
I wasn't sorry I failed or that she failed me. I wasn’t having much anxiety about which investments we have, would go to whom.
All I wanted from inside the house was one bed, some old pots and pans that BB was going to put in a garage sale, my tools, printer supplies, my computer, MP3 player, and a small TV.
I started to look at patio-homes and was almost mentally prepared to sell some stock to buy one, split what was left and give her an emotional good-by kiss and wish her well. I was about to say find some one you like, I am tired of trying and tired of not getting what I want. I was having one of my 1:30 PM days.
That is code for some magical creature, real or other wise, ringing my door bell at 1:30 PM some day and telling me he/she has been watching what has been going on and telling me it is time to move on. That is a stretch for me, professing not believe only things that are measurable.
And in so doing, you actually reduced the risk of you two splitting. Just like in the stock market, some of the safest moves are the ones that feel the scariest. The ones that feel safe often have the highest risk, KWIM? For me it was like I had to give up wanting something/many things before I could fix anything or move on.
To put it in apple tree trimmer's picture, I had to cut half fo the branches of a diseased tree and risk the tree's demise and "think nothing ventured, nothing gained."
What I should have done was cut some branches off long ago and take the hit of a smaller crop of apples (apple sauce goal) so some day the total apple yield would not go to almost zero.
I am hope full, but if I truly felt BB wanted to be on her own today and said she did, I would still offer 60% of our assets. She had some relatives that gave her some $, so to be fair, I would do the 40/60 thing.
I know BB wants to stay together. I have to figure out what part of her talk is bluff, what are princess wishes, and how I have to rid myself of some PMS and peace maker traits, I have that don't serve the R well. Some of the church C/literature falls in that area, working towards reducing my PMS.
That concept (being better for both of us to live separately) scared the heck out of me. I had to give up that “US” mental picture and realize there is an “us“, a “me” and a “her“ that can survive in either state.
I just got to the point of thinking WTF, why bother. I could have told BB bye, said have a nice life with out feeling like I was dumping her, being mean to her, or resenting her for not doing more for the R or me.
You know, everyone gets to this point sooner or later. Not the part about leaving but the part about detachment. Once you get there then the only needs you have to focus on are your own. The enmeshment finally ends and you can make the rational choices you need to make for your sake. That is putting yourself first. That is putting Dieda into play. That allows you to see no other alternative than to focus on your purpose. So what happened next?
… her typical reconnect genes kicked in. Now she wants me to be in control more and asks why I don’t touch her as much and wants more physical contact.
In other words, she notice you refocusing on your purpose, not hers. She felt you walking off without her and she wants to be a part of you. Do you see this Lou: her typical reconnect genes kicked in. You need to allow her to be her and stop trying to make her act as you think she should act. When you try to tell her how she should act, you short circuit her “reconnect genes.” Maybe Corri’s advice is appropriate here, that you only need to get out of the way of yourself?
I know BB wants to stay together.
So let her express that in her way.
I have to figure out what part of her talk is bluff, what are princess wishes, and how I have to rid myself of some PMS and peace maker traits, I have that don't serve the R well. Some of the church C/literature falls in that area, working towards reducing my PMS.
No, No, No. Stop reading her, trying to figure out what she wants, where she stands, etc. In all the years you have been married, have you been able to figure it out yet? When you ask her this question, has she been able to answer you? How much longer do you think either of you need in order to figure this out? Talk about a cheeseless tunnel!
This last quote is falling right back into enmeshment mode. You have seen repeatedly that if you detach and go on with your life, BB will follow. She will become nice, she will try to please you, she will have sex, all the things you say you want. But then you re-enmesh and it all stops. Why would you do something to undermine that which you have been working so hard to achieve?
There is a pattern here Lou. It is so clear to so many of us. Do you re-enmesh with BB to make her feel better or to make you feel better?
That concept (being better for both of us to live separately) scared the heck out of me.
Hasn’t this been the heart of your marriage problems all these years? Hasn’t it really been about you and not BB? Stop wasting your time on all that alternative relationship advice. Stop trying to find something that you can pin down as the problem between you and BB. Stop the master deflections. No matter what the approach or the theory, the answer will always come back to the same thing - you must confront your yourself and your fears of being alone. I think you are more than ready to lead, you just don't realize it. I also think BB is more than ready to follow you.
She felt you walking off without her and she wants to be a part of you. Do you see this Lou: her typical reconnect genes kicked in. Yes, I see it and anticipated that it would happen. At first I was thinking about not recognizing her reattachment and after a while thought I should give credit for what improvements I saw, os that is what I was doing for a while. Things did improve.
Maybe Corri’s advice is appropriate here, that you only need to get out of the way of yourself? By getting out of my own way, does that mean me doing less reconnecting work?
In all the years you have been married, have you been able to figure it out yet? Cobra, things change a little from year to year, that is what I adapr to and have to figure out. BB has some good traits but too many “princess traits” for me to go along with naturally, w/o putting on the “thinking cap” and asking myself “what is really behind the curtain.”
When you ask her this question, has she been able to answer you Her answers are non concrete. A little like Ms. HD but with more consideration for my feelings and wants, only she doesn’t know she will hold up her side of the R, considering her age or something else outside her control.
I think you are more than ready to lead, you just don't realize it. I also think BB is more than ready to follow you. The first part fits well. The part about BB following not so true. She is going to have her list of wants and doesn’t want, in order to follow. Of course I could go hard-core and tell her my way or the highway.
Doing something:
Pigs haven’t flown /\(OO)/\ for a couple of weeks and I want to practice some assertiveness while practicing some of the marriage builders advice.
We did the 15 hours of togetherness, the going to bed at the same time, I did some things for BB, she did some for me. We did some PBTS one night and It was time to have some sex.
TV and the usual foot rubs, then a shower and got to bed on time. Some making out, off come the bottoms and more kissing. Good so far. H leading W following.
Then BB goes into the common sack of potatoes/wet wash cloth mode and I do the moving but can’t get BB to move w/o giving specific directions, which she doesn‘t seem to understand.
Soon after penetration took place, BB is talking about what events are or were taking place at a local hospital. The point I want to ilistrate is, it is common for her to talk about something that has little to do with the moment we are in, as if she really isn’t there with me at the time. I am giving off signals/words that this is a hot moment for me. Giving off signals that what we are doing is exciting to me. So, BB talks about how the hospital eliminated parking places by enlarging the emergency room.
I could hear and feel BB wasn’t into the sex and decided to cut it short. A couple of minuets later, after I was done and she came back form the bathroom, BB asked me why I made it a short session, so I told her.
I said I could tell she was somewhere else mentally and about 4 things she was doing and not doing, were signs that she really wasn’t wanting to be with me. I said it was as if she was in, or at some other place, or she had some aversion to the sex that was going on.
BB said it wasn’t physically comfortable and she wasn’t get anything out of having sex. I put my arm around her and ran my fingers through her hair for several minuets and to be considerate to her needs for affection, in a style she enjoys.
Was I way off base telling her that it is a common trait of hers, to be some other place mentally during sex and during some make out moments? I said it as consideratly as I could with out glossing over the truth.
Maybe a better question what are some alternatives?
I am reducing the PMS, going for things I want, setting up an environment that promotes intimacy, but see I am still working with a partner that doesn’t want some of the same things I want.
A couple of thoughts from me right now. 1.Bang head here! 2.At least I confront some of my anxieties by doing unconfortable things. 3.Quit trying to catch trout from a pond that only contains frogs.
Soon after penetration took place, BB is talking about what events are or were taking place at a local hospital. The point I want to ilistrate is, it is common for her to talk about something that has little to do with the moment we are in, as if she really isn’t there with me at the time. I am giving off signals/words that this is a hot moment for me. Giving off signals that what we are doing is exciting to me. So, BB talks about how the hospital eliminated parking places by enlarging the emergency room.
I've never done anything like this in my life, not even with someone I didn't especially like, let alone someone I claimed to love. This is unspeakably RUDE. You can't tell me she doesn't know it's rude. I don't see how you can even O under these circumstances.
Well Lil, the disconnect was gradual, so maybe I got used to some of the disconnect and admitting to PMS, thought I didn't have the right to bring up the issue. Then if I did bring up the issue, how to do it w/o over doing it. Then there was the breast cancer treatment times, when adjustments were required, and other medical issues, etc.
You can't tell me she doesn't know it's rude I guess if you/BB doesn't like sex that much and have something like a princess or entitlement attitude, it's normal. Lil, I have read several of the women's medical issues forums, where the posters are doing woman to woman talk, many of them don't understand why their respective H's don't give up sex because they grew to dislike sex so much. A fair amount of the women there realize a no sex M won't work so they do sex with their H but really don't want to and don’t get that their H's can't feel their lack of interest in sex, more.
I don't see how you can even O under these circumstances Want to try on some things that Fran referred to a meat and two vegetables? When sex is good it's like taking a drug I can imagine. When it is not so good, I still have hopes it will be better next time.
Also, being a male giving up in the middle isn't something I want to think about. It doesn't seem manly. It would feel like I was insulting BB or admitting some sexual problem. It would mean I would have to finish the job alone, not holding on to someone I care about. I would feel compelled to MB to finish the job later.
Knowing BB does have some real problems with sex makes it bearable if I don't have to do something like this event every few days. I can build up enough energy/desire to craw through the mud pits, not worrying about the mud, but seeing the good things on the other side of the mud pit. Sometimes the mud pit isn’t muddy and fun to craw through.
I've never done anything like this That is good to hear. Before I came to this forum almost three years ago I was wondering if very many women liked sex and what I was experiencing was fairly common, which was leading to despair or resolve that all of the stories about women not liking sex and men being pests, was fate for most guys my age.
By getting out of my own way, does that mean me doing less reconnecting work?
That’s how I see it, if the reconnecting work you do causes her “typical reconnect genes” to not kick in anymore. If those genes are kicking in, let the pattern continue.
BB has some good traits but too many “princess traits” for me to go along with naturally, w/o putting on the “thinking cap” and asking myself “what is really behind the curtain.”
Lou, I also spend a lot of time trying to understand my wife and what makes her tick. But the reason I do that is to narrow the list of options I should take with her. In the end, I take one action or another. You just keep thinking about it with no action. What is the point of that? You are making yourself crazy.
Her answers are non concrete. A little like Ms. HD but with more consideration for my feelings and wants, only she doesn’t know she will hold up her side of the R, considering her age or something else outside her control.
Right, so stop asking and worrying about what she thinks. She doesn’t know.
The part about BB following not so true.
Are you sure? From what I recall, BB has followed whenever you put your foot down.
She is going to have her list of wants and doesn’t want, in order to follow.
This is more like what I recall, that she does not follow willingly, that she complains and grumbles, but she still follows. Why do you think you can ask her to change herself and then like it too? She is in her comfort zone right now. If you want to shift some of that comfort your way, don’t expect her to like it. Just expect her to deal with it.
Your avoidance of making her unhappy sounds to me like you have a major hang-up with being the rescuer Lou. Your guilt over-rides everything you do with regard to BB. If she is unhappy, you freeze. You don’t like where the R is but you don’t want to be blamed for making her unhappy, especially if it is to make yourself happy.
And guess what? She does exactly the same thing. If she does something you don’t like, you grumble and guilt her enough over money, ethics, doing what is right, etc., that she eventually gives in. You guilt her and she guilts you.
Think about this really hard Lou, because I think it is central to your marriage. When you avoid making BB unhappy, who are you protecting? I know you think you have her best interests in mind, but I have always thought, and still do, that you are avoiding the guilt you feel from BB. The feeling must be very powerful because it seems to override your desire to put the marriage on the right track. I think this type of guilt comes from low self esteem, so you might think that over and ask yourself why you don’t you think you matter?
If something is serious enough, you WILL put your foot down. It may take you a while but you do it in a way to not look like the bad guy. Instead you make BB take the fall for you having to draw the line, i.e., you guilt her. She knows this game too well which is part of why I think she is angry. If you draw the line, do it because YOU want to. Take responsibility for it and don’t hide behind some poor behavior of BB that “forced” you to act. She reads into your passive aggressiveness very easily. Then she retaliates.
The good part is that BB does seem to know there is a line out there somewhere and that does prevent her from being more assertive in her wants. But because you don’t acknowledge her and instead guilt her, she needs to step forward to meet her own needs. (I am not talking about material things. I am talking about you validating her.) She does not know where you stand and therefore she does not know where she stands. I think she might feel like she is stuck in limbo and she gets frustrated.
If you laid down definite rules and boundaries, as well as your expectations of her, she could make her adjustments. She might grumble about it, but she also might be just fine after a while. Don’t think that you are hurting her. Remember when you got fed up a while back and you were considering leaving the relationship? Had you left, she wouldn’t even had the chance to adjust (because you haven’t taken a stand). Just think how much more hurtful that would have been to her. Now how fair is that?
So coming back around in my argument, can you see that when you focus on BB and all her objections, her pickiness, etc., that you could actually avoiding your discomfort by keeping her stuck in limbo? And because you do this, can you see that she really has NO WAY OUT? (Because BB is not a leader, like Mrs HD.) Do you see how in this way, you maintain an implicit control over her?
This whole dynamic has its source in one place – your sense of guilt. I think you should consider a heart to heart talk with BB about this subject.
BB said it wasn’t physically comfortable and she wasn’t get anything out of having sex.
My wife does the exact same thing. Not all the time, but sometimes. This is deflection 101. She is uncomfortable with the closeness and is trying to avoid her own feelings. It has nothing to do with you.
This is a good example of what I was talking about. You must take the lead and not worry about acceptance from BB. When you stop it short, you internalize it, and you do her a disservice. She needs as much time enduring that discomfort as possible, if she is to ever work through it. She will get used to it, but if you stop, then complain, she will be more anxious next time. In fact, she must not have been that uncomfortable with it since she asked why you stopped. Can you see how your guilt and enmeshment takes over your perception of what is happening and how BB is feeling?
Was I way off base telling her that it is a common trait of hers, to be some other place mentally during sex and during some make out moments? I said it as consideratly as I could with out glossing over the truth.
I think she needs to realize what she is doing if she is going to stop it. But instead of you stopping short, tell her to stop talking, to relax and enjoy. Let her deal with her emotional discomfort. You do what you can to soothe her, just keep going and you enjoy. Don’t cut it short.
BTW, did she complain any of the physical discomfort that used to prevent her from having sex? What happen to that objection, or maybe was it just an excuse?
Maybe a better question what are some alternatives?
I say stop the major deflecting, face your fears, stop worrying about acceptance and guilt and lead.
