Choc, I would have asked but it wasn't my marriage seminar.
I told my W about this statement and she looked at me like DUH! BB was the one wanting to go to the motel most all of the time.
I was still supporting my mother and didn't see how I could support a W if BB got PG. I didn't want to wind up like other couples that I sae that got PG before they cut the wedding cake.
What I saw were two people that used getting PG as the stone to trip over when they had an argument. I has way too much arguing and fighting as a kid I didn't want more when I got married.
In some ways, BB was what I needed to break me out of my stiff shirt, play it safe mode. We put hickies on top of hickies and touched, groped everything gropable, almost every night we went out. Even sampled the cake a few times but were always worred that her friend might not show up.
Back to the seminar. So BB asked me if she should appologise to me. I said no way.
According to what usually goes on and some of the things discussed here, the seminar has some holes in it according to what is typically posted here.
One topic was how men like sex. Again I almost said, "but I know a woman on DB that wants way more sex than her H". "In fact I think I can find 5 or 10 women that claim sex doesn't happen often enough."
Imagine what would have been said if I did that?
Again, it wasn't my seminar. For now I will listen to what they have to say but will form my own cures for our M based on information and help from several sources. I will try things and measure the results.
1. Spouses that leave a M, once gone should not be allowed to return for 6 months if they had discussed issues before hand for some time and nothing was resolved. Allowing a departing spouse to return in a week or two lets the WAS spouse think leaving and coming back are no big deal.
It's definitely the time to get new ground rules set up.
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2.For couples that have sex before M, the H needs to apologize to his W and ask for her forgiveness.
I bet this is based on the assumption that good girls don't "put out" without pressure and that premarital sexual activity is always instigated by men. Bad assumption.
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3. Men don't like counseling but will be more open to training or "Practice" sessions.
From my reading, women are just as likely to resist counselling as are men. Off the top of my head, I think resistance breaks down into two categories. Those spouses who don't want to be told what to do by others and those spouses who don't want strangers knowing their "business".
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4. 50% of M people in the general population divorce. Almost as many couples that attend church/religious services divorce at a similar rate. Couples that verbally pray together and for each daily, have a divorce rate of 1 in 1200. (doing it on the phone count)
It makes sense that it would be a bit more difficult to betray someone that you are lifting up to God in prayer daily. I think churches fail miserably when it comes to teaching about sex/marriage. It's hard to get around the strains of Puritanism that still permeate.
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5. Treat your spouse with kindness, love and respect for 24 months before leaving or giving up. Don’t expect much of a pay-off for the things you do. You are supposed to do them out of duty, respect, and kindness. It is what you signed up for when you got M’ed. Physical abuse, severe chemical dependency and adultery, are leave now topics.
I think of it as earning your way out of a marriage. Doing the right thing regardless of your spouse's behaviors/actions can really put a laser light on the spouse's issues giving the couple a better opportunity of actually dealing with the marital issues.
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6. The most common reasons for M problem he sees has some basis in PMS, that is "passive male syndrome" or guys that want to be nice, avoid conflict, and have over bought into some of the feminist men and women are equal or the same.
I subscribe to the idea that men and women are equal but they are also different. I also think that there has been a feminization of the culture - 911 actually impacted that some as we watched men being men and realized that it was something to be admired. I think just about every HD woman here has expressed the desire for their husbands to "top their top" sexually. I don't think that's the only relational area that women want their men to be leaders.
From my reading, women are just as likely to resist counselling as are men. Off the top of my head, I think resistance breaks down into two categories. Those spouses who don't want to be told what to do by others and those spouses who don't want strangers knowing their "business".
Add to that someone who may have tried counseling once and just happened upon a useless one (I only went once but the guy barely let me speak and did not even react to the issues I managed to tell him. Instead he went on and on about his own life. Ok granted it was a freebie at college but how was I to know that he was a fluke?) So as a smart, well read, open-minded person I later felt that it was more useless to go. HUGE MISTAKE which has led me to become a vocal proponent of counseling to friends, family and whomever is unlucky enough to sit next to me on the plane and strike up a conversation with me!! And I stress that if the first one doesn't feel right try another and another because there are some GREAT ones out there.
I just add this because I think the reason people do not go needs to be addressed to convince them to go.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Add to that someone who may have tried counseling once and just happened upon a useless one (I only went once but the guy barely let me speak and did not even react to the issues I managed to tell him. Instead he went on and on about his own life.
Was it at least an interesting tale?
I am a proponent of solution oriented counselling. I think it is necessary to stop the relational hemorrhage first. You can always go back and deal with why someone might be the way they are.
I also think that (short of abusive marriages) *both* spouses should be addressed concurrently. The most recent counselling described here was Hairdog's. He was given his list and it seems that his wife doesn't get challenged on her contributions until HD has managed to get through his list.
I think that's a dangerous dynamic especially when it is so open-ended.
I was 22, trying to shake a bulimic habit, taking an extra full load of engineering classes, was spending every Friday and Sunday on weekend riding a Greyhound bus for 2-3 hours, and spending the rest of the weekend with my dad at the hospital with my mom. By this time she had probably spent 20 weeks of the last 40 in ICU with a good 15 of them on the ventilator. (Which if anyone knows much about hospitals, that is pretty unusual) I handled the first 2 quarters okay but was really starting to feel the stress. I had transferred to a new school for only a quarter before my mom was diagnosed with the brain tumor and had her first operation. xH was my boyfriend at the time and really handled it about as well as he could given that he was in Law School and did not have much free time. I had lots of study buddies and acquaintances at school but had not developed close enough friends to disclose much to and did not tell my professors about this. Anyway... I was becoming more stressed and thought that counseling might be able to help. So I go in and start off with the story of my mom's brain tumor and hospital stays and the guy just drones on and on about something in his past. Honestly I was so devastated by his lack of interest in me and my mental health that I thought that his lack of interest in my story meant that it wasn't that big of deal and that I should just suck it up and move on. Which I did. All and all I am proud that I dealt with the bulimia on my own along with getting through engineering with a 3.4 GPA and still supporting my mom and dad along the way. My dad got a 1-800 number so I could call them from school. I called every day for almost two years. I knew my mom was getting better when one day she told me on the phone that "you do not need to call every day." What a relief from an extra stress that I did not even realize. My dad was on the phone too and we all laughed. So to cut this rambling off - this is an example of how decent coping skills can end up backfiring. I thought that I had learned that I could handle things on my own and that lousy therapists would be of no use. I was so shocked at our first MC session when the therapist let us both talk most of the session with only specific questions to us.
My meetings were canceled for the day so that's why I have all this extra time to wax on and on about myself.
OG_Lou Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Fearless, HiJack anytime. From reading some of your story You earned the right.
I can relate to some of the college stories. I went to college when I was 43, about 20 years ago. I saw the pressure cooker it could be it you worked for higher grades and had things going on in the family. That includes/describes me at the time.
Many of the older class mates had stories about things and events that were going on similar to yours along with spouse and kid problems. About 25% of us were in C with the college's C's that were in finishing up their own masters programs in "family counseling" programs. Fortunately, the lady I was seeing had her stuff together.
Fearless, and that is with a capital F, you are an asset to the forum. There is no need for you to say sorry.
And I stress that if the first one doesn't feel right try another and another because there are some GREAT ones out there.
What I say to people is, if you had a bad haircut, would you NEVER get your hair cut again? If a mechanic messed up your car, would you never again take your car to a mechanic? If a plumber didn't fix something right, would you simply revert to outdoor plumbing? If you had one not-so-good college professor, would you DROP OUT OF SCHOOL? You get the idea.... C's are professionals, and they're human. They're different. Find one you like.
