I think some men have a hard time believing that we do not mind a little alone time or time with some good friends. Maybe they really want to feel we cannot live without them??
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Fearless may have been right, but she is still divorced.
Ouch! I missed this the first time through. I really have problems with slams against people who are divorced, as if it is an indication they failed or that they were the "wrong" person.
Quote:
In all fairness to me, I am divorced because xH chose to have an affair, not work on the marriage after the affair ended, and restarted the affair after I moved out at his request. Not in response to how I treated him. It was because he could not face his issue and not because I pushed him too hard. I worry that I pushed too hard. He does not think so.
Adultery is never the answer to marital problems. That you were willing to work on the marriage after the affair is an indication of your willingness and open heart.
Do stop beating yourself up over whether or not you pushed too hard. We can at best make good faith efforts, be open to our own shortcomings and contributions and ask for good faith efforts from our spouses. Some spouses just aren't willing to make that effort.
Fearless may have been right, but she is still divorced.
I didn't take it as a slam. I just responded because it didn't think it accurately fit what happened. Although in some ways I actually have the same feeling at times, Great I was "right" and did many right things and tried my best to be a good wife and it just wasn't good enough. xH to his credit is at a place where he has unequivocally stated that his affair was about him and had NOTHING to do with me. It just doesn't always feel that way.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Quote: -------------------------------------------------- That is why I cringe sometimes when I see people trying to follow someone's advice off of this baord as if it is going to be the Holy Grail of solutions. --------------------------------------------------
Names?
What are your fears?
-NOPkins-
Oh, come on Nop, I already pointed out that you and Cobra are people that come to mind regarding this issue. I'm not fearful of letting anyone know that. Not sure what you meant by my "fears". Feel free to let me know if you are so inclined. I'm willing to listen. And as I stated to Fearless, the style of communication is very important. It's one thing to state "this is my opinion and here is some feedback that may or may not help you" and another thing to be doling out marital advice as if one has all the answers. Don't get me wrong here. I think you and MrsNop have made amazing progress in your M and kudos again to you. I'm sure both of you have made a very conscious effort to work on your issues and that has been successful. But why feel the need to tell people in the greatest of details what to do for THEIR M? That's where I feel you are overstepping. But again, that's just my opinion. I also feel therapists in general often overstep in their level of "here's what you need to do". So when I see it being done by people on the board, I just find it kind of think it's odd is all. Seems more self-serving than anything else. Then again, all of us on this board are probably fairly self-serving and like to "hear ourselves talk...uhm type". Or none of us would be here. Back to my fears a sec. I'm now thinking that maybe you think I'm avoiding embracing a "solution" mentality. But that is not the case at all. I'm all for solutions. I just strongly feel they are not going to be cookie cutter for every person that comes along. Too many variables with human behavior. My H and I are in a good place right now. I feel like we have similar views on most issues and we both respect each other's opposing viewpoints when they come up. Just like in a therapeutic setting, the M setting should be based on some empathy, respect, and understanding. Not sure if I shared this or not on the board, but both my H and I are licensed therapists in NY (I also teach). We have problems (clearly) just like everyone else but I think my training has provided a good base from which to work on our M issues. I certainly would never overstep my boundaries on this board and start providing therapy where it is not appropriate. So I guess my "fear" is that some of us have the potential to cause more harm than good with what we advise at times. That's all. Take it or leave it. It's a public board.
Why are we here, if not to seek advice from others? If not, I might as well just be journaling in a spiral notebook.
Sure, I find NOP a wee big smug at times, but that same confidence and certitude is also reassuring when I'm seeking advice from various viewpoints, and I'm not altogether sure that it's not just my own "the truth hurts" insecurities making me feel that way.
And the brevity of his posts ain't too hard on the eyes, either, as this board has seemingly exploded into 2000+ word tomes lately.
this board has seemingly exploded into 2000+ word tomes lately. And moving from talking about issues to talking about talking about issues. So here I am taking it one more step further and talking about talking about talking about issues.
We are all dealing with much less information about the dynamics and events in other posters lives than is possible "being there". Our own projections of our personal situations, failures and victories both can cloud and inform what we can intuit about others.
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------ Oh, come on Nop, I already pointed out that you and Cobra are people that come to mind regarding this issue. ------------------------------------------------------
Then stop making couched references about me in the third party. If you have an issue with me, then speak to me without me having to seek you out.
Your fears. I don't know exactly where you are now, but when you "left" this forum, you were absolutely soaking in fear to commit to your marriage and had just ended what was evidently an emotional affair with Chrome. When you first came to this board, you were full of fear about your marriage and waffling back and forth between your husband and the allure of the fantasy of a relationship with another man. I think you fear your husband coming here, finding out about you and your liaisons, then snooping on you.
If your fear is about someone's relationship being harmed, what are you afraid of, someone being told to re-engage communication with their spouse, or being told to love their spouse?
My style of communication is my style. I have no intention of placating people that might find it "overly confident". I am not a professional therapist. I don't claim to be. I am a professional however, and I do bring that and a boatload of experience to bear on my suggestions for others relationships.
Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------- But why feel the need to tell people in the greatest of details what to do for THEIR M? That's where I feel you are overstepping. But again, that's just my opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------
As I alluded to above, I read situations and people very easily. If you are interested in my colorful past, then you can find it written about on this forum. I do have a somewhat unique perspective to bring to bear on other people's situations.
Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------- I also feel therapists in general often overstep in their level of "here's what you need to do". So when I see it being done by people on the board, I just find it kind of think it's odd is all. Seems more self-serving than anything else. Then again, all of us on this board are probably fairly self-serving and like to "hear ourselves talk...uhm type". Or none of us would be here. ----------------------------------------------------------------
I think that good therapists should be able to speak directly into the lives of their clients. As for therapists being self-serving, I would think that would depend on the individual therapist. Personally, I don't get a thrill out of "hearing" myself speak. I do get a thrill out of helping other people work their way out of their bad situations, and I am absolutely certain that no one ever did that by sitting on their hands.
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Back to my fears a sec. I'm now thinking that maybe you think I'm avoiding embracing a "solution" mentality. But that is not the case at all. I'm all for solutions. I just strongly feel they are not going to be cookie cutter for every person that comes along. Too many variables with human behavior. ------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that you are terrified of finding yourself forced to make a relationship work that you might not like when you are 50. I think you are terrified that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, and that if you don't sample it, you will have lost an opportunity to have a different life.
I don't think that way. I have hopped from one pasture to the next MANY times and all the grass was the same. Your life is what you make of it NOW. Better to be busy living than worrying about dying or the grass over the next hill.
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------- I just strongly feel they are not going to be cookie cutter for every person that comes along. Too many variables with human behavior. --------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that a cookie cutter solution works for everyone either. Regardless, humans tend to make the same mistakes in relationships over and over, especially in affairs. All affair behavior could be written in a single 600 page textbook. Affairs are cookie cutter.
Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- My H and I are in a good place right now. I feel like we have similar views on most issues and we both respect each other's opposing viewpoints when they come up. Just like in a therapeutic setting, the M setting should be based on some empathy, respect, and understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am glad that you and your husband are in a good place with mutual respect. Mutual respect is good.
Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Not sure if I shared this or not on the board, but both my H and I are licensed therapists in NY (I also teach). We have problems (clearly) just like everyone else but I think my training has provided a good base from which to work on our M issues. I certainly would never overstep my boundaries on this board and start providing therapy where it is not appropriate. So I guess my "fear" is that some of us have the potential to cause more harm than good with what we advise at times. That's all. Take it or leave it. It's a public board. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was not aware that you are a therapist. I do hope that you are getting some good therapy, especially if you are practicing. If I were a client, I would find your posted behaviors quite disturbing. I intend no disrespect.
I am not providing therapy to anyone. I make suggestions to people about their relationship that pushes them back toward their spouse. If there are a set of constraints, such as an impending divorce, then I customize my suggestions. I look at each person here and their problems as separate entities. If someone doesn't want to take my "advice" I don't give it or I shut up if I have been giving it.
If you want to know why I post with a measure of confidence, it is because I measure my words carefully. I consider the situation I am making suggestions about carefully. I make it a point to not abandon someone once they have started making changes in their relationship. I don't see where you get the idea that I am being irresponsible. No one has been forced to follow any of my suggestions, nor do I chase them down.
Lastly. I think the real issue here is that you simply don't like me or my moral certainty. Fine with me. Regardless, if you ever want my read on your situation, just ask and I will tell you what I honestly think. It will be your choice what you choose to do with it.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
That is why I cringe sometimes when I see people trying to follow someone's advice off of this board as if it is going to be the Holy Grail of solutions.
I reluctantly insert myself into this exchange. FWIW while I have not been on this forum long, I did guess that NOP could have been at least one of the "someone's advice". My interpretation (despite LFL recent post which was a response to a more personal jab from NOP) was that it was not really about about a particular person but was rather about the READER being careful to not necessarily take advice verbatim from someone without some extra caution to ensure that it fits their situation. So in her case she may feel at times that other people follow NOPkins advice without enough caution but that does not mean that others shouldn't follow your advice just that they make sure it FITS.
So the reason she did not mention names was actually useful because although she may feel that way about certain people personally she was actually doing the outside reader a favor but not passing judgment against particular advice but warning to always make sure they feel it will work for them. For me there are 2 distinct issues that I see 1) Is the advice right for the situation and 2) Am I in a place where I can follow it as given? This is NOT about excuses but about really understanding where a person is emotionally. The advice could be right but if the person is overwhelmed, extremely mentally fatigued, etc. they may not be able to do justice to the advice.
As far as good therapists speaking directly into lives, I have been lucky enough to see 2 very good therapists over the past 2 years and while both were intuitive and at times were on the mark, they have been off the mark also. And both have accepted when I or my xH (well he was only with one) told them that their intuition was off and did not fit us or the situation. So I suppose that says something about them and about us. While they intuited, we must have been honest enough that they would believe us when we disagreed with them. Of course NOP would probably be disappointed in the marriage counselor who did not see my H's affair although I felt validated that he didn't see it anymore that I did.
NOPkins
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All affair behavior could be written in a single 600 page textbook. Affairs are cookie cutter.
I agree about the length of the book but I am not sure about the cookie cutter statement. Have you read Pittman's descriptions of different types of affairs? I ask this because my xH's fit completely into the "Romantic" affair (which is not at all romantic but you would need to read his description). His affair did not seem to fit the stereotype affair especially because we had a good marriage (not PERFECT) going into the affair
Last edited by fearless; 03/08/0711:41 AM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
