Discussion on MrsCAC4 thread - Making assumptions

[DERaven]

Too little emotion can seem like a lack of concern to the kids. Some emotion is necessary for people to get it that someone else cares for them. I see this as having the same effect as healthy doses of modest jealousy.

Cobra,

This really struck home with me. If XW and I were having an argument and I did my typical withdrawal, she would yell, possibly hit, curse at me...anything so I would show emotion. It didn't matter if it was good or bad, she just needed a reaction from me. I also believe I did not exhibit jealousy. In her mind this meant I didn't care and it became easy for her to rationalize leaving the marriage. I believed (arrogantly, now that I look back) that we both were committed to each other and there was no need for me to be jealous. I was confident in her love for me. I believed no matter what another man felt toward XW I knew she loved me and was committed because she told me and I should believe her. What I did not understand was that she needed that hint of jealousy from me to know that I continued to care and did not take her for granted.

hey wait,


I could have swore that you were just talking to your x about the possibilities of getting back together at a family dinner though.... so confused ...does that mean she is still up for grabs?

BF,

You are correct. The kids and I have dinner every Thursday at a local burger joint. XW had them during the day and met me in the evening to exchange. She was going home and would be alone so I just asked her to eat with us. This is the same place XW and I had taken kids for many years. My S4 asked XW when she would be coming home and we could all be together again. I am in the family home and XW bought a house with OM (new H), so to S4 and D7 that is their true home. I called XW the next day and asked her about putting the family back together. I left it up to her because she would have to make the first move. She is remarried! I was completely honest with fearless about this. She knows how I struggle with the guilt of my kids coming from a "broken home". She is helping me work through that.

So...no, she is not up for grabs.

Fearless, do you think your ex could have felt the same sort of thing from you. You say you don’t control, at least overtly. You call people out to assume responsibility for their actions. That seems natural for you. But if that person was not raised to do this and came from a shaming background, as your ex may have, then your method will be very difficult for him to deal with. Furthermore, the logic of why he should own his feelings is irrefutable, so he really has no defense. If he can’t deal with his shame and he cannot defend himself, then best to just go into hiding, which is what he did.

Cobra,

Is it controlling to have certain expectations in a relationship? I am asking that sincerely. I have told fearless many times how much I was like her XH. I would have the same interactions with my XW. I would avoid confrontation (or potential confrontation because I didn't truly know I just assumed), deflect blame from me and explain to XW why her feelings were wrong. I realized my contribution to the ending of my marriage. During the time of my S and ultimate D, reading, reflecting, and being here helped me to understand what kind of partner I wanted/needed to be in a successful new R.

Fearless does have an expectation that I assume responsibility for my actions. I can recall one difficult time where it was painful staying put and discussing an issue. I wanted to revert to my old nature and push her away and avoid the topic all together. I wanted to place all the blame on XW and deflect it from myself. I forced myself to stay. I did this because I knew this was an expectation of myself in this new R and an expectation of fearless. I did not see it as controlling but as something she deserved from me if I truly valued her needs in the R. I think if it is displayed in a loving manner that does help. I always tell fearless how easy it is to keep up my changes because I feel so appreciated. When your efforts are reccognized, it makes it that much easier.

[LustForLife]

I think there may be some people that do actually like know-it-alls although you and I are probably not part of that group For example people without answers who are uncomfortable without having answers and feel they do not know how to find the answers themselves may find a know it all comforting. But people who can find the answers themselves do not need that personality and would probably suspect that the know it all personality is covering up an issue of their own.

Very well said Fearless. I totally agree. That is why I cringe sometimes when I see people trying to follow someone's advice off of this baord as if it is going to be the Holy Grail of solutions. Nothing wrong with having hope and enthusiam for an answer but ultimately The Answer comes from us, not from any one else, not from a therapist, and certainly not from a stranger off this board.
I'm enjoying the discusions though!

[Cobra]

DERaven,

Is it controlling to have certain expectations in a relationship?

I’ve been thinking of how to reply to this. It is a complex question because personally I don’t think there is a “right” answer. On one hand you could say that marriage is a choice and because either person is free to walk away, expectations might be a constraint on that principle. People should meet expectations out of free will, not obligation. But if you take Nop’s point of view, marriage involves certain oaths which each person has agreed to fulfill. So expectations that your spouse fulfill those oaths seem reasonably too.

In the example of Fearless and her ex, I think the control he feels is really due to his inability to confront is own issues. Her bringing it up puts the ball in his court. He feels controlled because now he must return the ball, but he can’t. So he projects blame onto Fearless. Is she controlling him? I don’t think so, but that doesn’t matter because he is the one who feels controlled and he is the only one who counts. Fearless may have been right, but she is still divorced.

Maybe the best and most realistic way to address this is through a crucible perspective. This boils down to the two choice dilemma - which choice is more/less painful than the other. Not only must you make your choice, but you must decide how that choice is going to affect your spouse. In this way each person’s values and the importance of those values is considered.

So seeing expectations as controlling by one person may be seen differently by another. In fact, someone might think having expectations placed upon them actually feels comforting. Another might feel strangled. I think it depends on the person and what that person sees as the alternate choice.

[NewJourney]

I didn't participate here because it just seemed too much for me to absorb...takes me awhile to figure out new people's situations, esp new people who are very analytic. I'm also trying to move forward with my own stuff, and it's easier to read the threads I'm familiar with. And I am trying to stay " solution focused" and not just get into tempting discussions. And, of course, when Cobra's on board, it takes me time to separate the wheat from the chaff. Lil, your posts can be just as long as Cobra's but for some reason I have an easier time with them.

Fearless and DERaven...how absolutely wonderful it is that you can communicate this way here.

Corri...The "first seek to understand" stuff...are you getting that from the Covey books? I recently got the 7 Habits of Families but haven't read it...gave it to H to read...it's practical and I think he'd like it. It came with conversation cards but I doubt we'll do them.

[NOPkins]

Hi, LFL.

Quote:
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That is why I cringe sometimes when I see people trying to follow someone's advice off of this baord as if it is going to be the Holy Grail of solutions.
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Names?

What are your fears?

-NOPkins-

[MrsNOP]

I was very open about communicating what I was upset about but xH was so sure that he knew the real issue. I could tell him until I was blue in the face that waiting to the last minute showed disrespect for me and did not allow me to make my own plans for the evening. But he just KNEW that the real problem was that I was jealous, wanted him to be home with me and did not want him to go out with his friends so he believed it was my fault that he would wait until the last minute to let me know about these plans.

I do not mind that xH assumed things about me but I did mind that when I tried to explain what I really felt, I was told that I was not being honest and did not know what I felt.

Harley calls those sorts of assumptions "disrespectful judgements". Your xH was placing himself in a position of superiority over you in regards to *your* own feelings. Snort.

Telling someone how they really feel over their continued assertions to the contrary is way up there in the makes-me-love-you-less categories.

I'm glad you had enough strength to hold onto your own sense of self - to do otherwise results in crazy-making.

MrsNOP -

[fearless]

Fearless may have been right, but she is still divorced.

In all fairness to me, I am divorced because xH chose to have an affair, not work on the marriage after the affair ended, and restarted the affair after I moved out at his request. Not in response to how I treated him. It was because he could not face his issue and not because I pushed him too hard. I worry that I pushed too hard. He does not think so.

[fearless]

I'm glad you had enough strength to hold onto your own sense of self - to do otherwise results in crazy-making.

Just barely. To be perfectly honest there were a few years where I did feel like I was the crazy one. xH developed a close friendship with a female friend at work. I was not invited into this friendship. xH knew her friends and family while I never met any of them. Long story but it was a significant EA (I did not know the terminology then). Any request from me regarding this friendship continued into the pattern of accusing me of having issues that I needed to work on. I felt so alone and crazy during this time. I couldn't even talk to friends about this because I was embarrassed and afraid maybe I was the crazy one. When she moved away with her fiance, he even drove 4 hours to meet her halfway and spend the weekend together. So while I was willing to speak up and push, it should be fairly obvious that xH had the real control because I was unwilling to push him too hard.

I can speak my mind and will stick by my feelings but in the end I will usually try to make someone else happy and comfortable by sacrificing my needs. Hmmm does this start to point to one of my real issues?

[Lillieperl]

My late H used to do the not telling me until the last minute thing when he was going fishing with his friend L. My late H's first wife used to get VERY upset when he would go on these excursions. She wanted him at home all the time. (When he would go out to the garage to work in his shop, she would come out and ask him to come in the house.)

I, OTOH, used to look forward to his fishing trips. I enjoyed the time alone (until he died, of course, and then I couldn't remember for a couple of years why I wanted time alone ). I could rent foreign movies-- he couldn't do subtitles because his eyesight was so bad-- slack off on cooking, go out in the evening with girlfriends.

But I could NEVER convince him that I didn't mind his trips. He would put off telling me until a couple of days before even though he and L had planned them weeks, even months, ahead of time. Then I would get mad-- not because he was going, but because he didn't tell me because he was afraid I would get mad... if you follow that. I never minded his going-- I loved that he was still able enough to hunt and fish. I trusted his friend L to keep an eye on him and let me know if anything happened. (Alas, L died suddenly at work one day of a heart attack. They found him on the floor of the men's room. The hardest thing I ever had to do was tell my H that his best friend had died) The planning thing wasn't an issue for me, as anything I would do while he was gone would be strictly spur-of-the-moment.

I never was able to convince him that his hunting/fishing trips were a-ok with me. He never said he didn't believe me. I think he did believe me at the moment, but forgot when it was time for the next trip, or else assumed my not being mad the last time was an aberration of some sort.

[fearless]

Cobra,

You are welcome. it has been fun. I try to think of myself as being willing to take a few jabs all in good fun

Since you are giving more information about yourself, I am refining my view of you. There is still that something which I am having trouble putting my finger on…..

There is a lot of background information about my family that I may go into later. And I am not eliminating the control issue. I just need to gather info from some friends and family. I am going to see one of my best friends this weekend and she's good at seeing my issues. It's funny because I was similar to her xH and she's similar to my xH in personality. And yet in both circumstances we were the ones left by them. Go figure.

Well that post about your wife does explain a lot. While I am an upfront person, in person I am not so much of a demanding forceful person. I do not back down and I speak my mind however I do not think people would categorize me as "in your face." I definitely like the idea of people being honest and owning their stuff but you absolutely cannot FORCE or even demand it of adults. And for kids it is a balance of making sure that they see the BENEFIT of being in control. There I said it! My mom's approach always seemed more positive. Although we were punished for our mistakes, they were ours and we were able to control the results the next time. I always felt more in control to know that it was something I could change.

I have shared this example with a few parents. My mom responded to crying and complaining between kids by "punishing" us all. This may not seem "fair" but think about it, how often as a parent do you think you really know who started the mess? How many times do you guess wrong? So she forced us to figure things out between ourselves. It seemed to work for us anyway. But I guess the key is my mom was not doing it from a position of power but from love. And we always knew that. It does not mean we were happy about it all the time. Oh and another example I love about my mom's approach as a parent. My little brother was very energetic and people would call him hyper in those days. She would draw herself up (all 5') and declare that "he is NOT hyper; he is a NORMAL active little boy!" I can still hear her voice as I write that line She would still punish him for misbehaving but would not allow him to be labeled. My brother is one of the greatest guys I know and is a wonderful husband and I believe my mom's respect for him as a child was a big part of that. And she respected all of us that way.

Your wife definitely sounds like she had some family issues growing up. I can understand a bit how I might come across in my posts but you will have to trust that I am an empathetic nurturing person and not much about your wife interacts with people rings true for me. So maybe your wife and I have the same beliefs but we do not convey them the same way, have different approaches with people and may have different personalities. I never demanded that my xH be like me. I tried to draw him out not force him out. I wanted him to feel as confident about himself as he should be. Yes I know that can still be painful and worse yet I know that pain is yet another issue for him. Most people do not LIKE pain but just like physical pain there is a mental and spiritual pain that signifies growth. And I admit I am one of those people that can appreciate that kind of pain.

I am not sure I understand the defense issue as well but I will think about that more. Sometimes I think we can get too caught up in needing a protection from our mistakes. Of course there are contributing and mitigating factors as to why we do things but I am not always sure there is a true defense for a wrong action. There are many things I have done that were just plain wrong. Other people may try to defend me and make excuses but I do not. One example is that I received a DUI when I was 22. I am still upset that I drove that night. At the time I rarely (not never though) drove after drinking. I knew better and that is that. I cried so hard that night the policemen were all telling me that it was not a big deal, etc. When I told my parents they did not even yell at me because they already knew how sorry I was. But sorry is not enough. I believe that 15 years later the only thing I can hang my hat on is the fact that I do not have to worry about another DUI. I have a fairly strict 1 drink on empty stomach and 2 drinks with dinner rule. That keeps me within the safe guideline so I do not have to worry. That is how I approach things for myself anyway.

I am not sure I am enamored by Eastern philosophy but I am interested in it. I have read a few books on Taoism and some of Thich Nhat Hahn's book which have been great.

I have a lot of thinking to do so I think I will cut this short