I feel sorry for both of them. It doesn't sound like NHN's husband is anymore interested in her than she is in him. Sounds like they are both in it for the kids.
If NHN's husband is the passive couch potato she describes, he would probably be perfectly content to be without her or anyone else.
I really do wonder about the 100% commitment of OM though. What odds would you give me he has a different OW on the side?
Last edited by Astimegoeson; 03/07/0707:22 PM.
"It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare." -Mark Twain
She's given us great detail about her husband's faults and failings. I wonder if she is as cognizant of her specific contributions to the failure of the marriage? If so, I would like to hear them.
Her husband's life has been a lie for the past 3 years and he doesn't have a clue. As an unrepentent adulterer, she is very likely to pick up another man at any time to meet her needs. She finds sex with her husband cringeworthy - does anyone doubt that he has picked up on that feeling?
What are her husband's needs? What are his complaints? What are his issues with the marriage?
As she states, she likes the status quo, she likes being in control.
Has she ever considered letting her husband know that she has one foot out of the door?
He would then have a choice to make:
1. Continue on as is, as his wife leaves.
2. Make changes to the marriage to make it better for both of them.
3. He decides that he wants to get some love and admiration of the side too.
4. Realize that *he* doesn't want to be married to her and chooses to divorce.
5. Chooses to divorce and seek a marriage with a woman who loves him for his stability and peacefulness as opposed to his current wife who lables those characteristics as boring and dull and denigrates them.
But, as long as she continues on her own personal, selfish powertrip of control, he won't know that he has been cuckolded for the past 4 years. And he can't make a decision based on the truth, since she's withholding that from him.
Best of luck to you with this whole thing. You seem very articulate so I think you'll be able to do this with sensitivity and tact.
I think getting it all out will be a huge relief for both you and your husband. Usually spouses do "know" it's going on. They have a sense, they feel the distance. It really is more mutual than you think, and my guess is he knows a lot more than you realize.
Getting the affair out in the open should change the dynamics of things. I think in your case it may be the only thing that has a chance of "saving" your marriage -- since it currently is dead.
Again, best of luck to you!!!
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Here are two rules of thumb that most counselors/therapists will tell you about dealing with affairs.
If you had an affair with someone and still maintain contact "as friends" it hasn't really ended. No spouse can ever really trust you with that kind of a friendship. No therapist would ever suggest you stay in contact with that person.
You must apologize to your spouse for the affair.
You said you don't regret the affair and you won't break contact with the other man.
As long as these two things are true, most likely, your marriage can't work, not because of your husband's lethargy, but because of you. He hasn't been given the chance to change, because he doesn't know the truth.
The truth is, you don't want to save the marriage. You probably didn't 2-3 years ago when you came on this forum, and you don't now.
Maybe admitting that to yourself. Maybe admitting your culpability will move things in a more open and honest direction.
Pretending you want your husband to change and you want the marriage to work is not helping you either.
Lights and Theoden, Thanks for your posts...I really appreciate your thoughtful responses. I would love to hear your story, Lights, especially because I can't understand why your wife would want to leave when she felt like everything was great. I appreciate that you recognize that my M may never have been a real M from the beginning - because I truly believe that in looking back - I was only 16 when we met and I really think it was our great network of family/friends that was the connection we had - but not with each other - most of our early time together was surrounded by other people in the HS/college setting...I even am sure that when my H and I first dated and probably during the early years of our M, he cheated on me. And yes, he has good connections with many other people - which is part of the hurt I have when I see him connecting with others and his eyes light up, and then when he is with me, the light is gone. I also think there is some truth that he probably wouldn't be too devastated if we weren't together - because he really doesn't have much love for me. I totally agree and recognize that I have played a large contribution to the problems in our M - obviously both sides have a huge role. And one thing I'll mention is that my H has NEVER been able to vocalize to me his own wants and needs...or hopes, desires, dreams, wishes for the future...nothing...and I used to ask and try to engage him to talk about anything deeper than sports or food or the weather and it just never happens. I really think he doesn't need that kind of a deep intimacy and I do - which is part of why we never connected in the first place and the lack of connection becomes more apparent as we get older and he stays the same as always and I change...
I will try the book you mentioned. I am very torn because on one hand, I know I owe my family and my H another honest try and on the other hand...I tend to believe that Theoden is correct that down deep I just want the M to end and move on.
Another thing I'll say - the OM - I have to stick up for him a bit. I am absolutely certain that he has never before and would never again have an A. The reason it went from a brief PA to now an EA is because he 100% does not want to risk his family. I really do not think that our R is an EA to him. It really is just a long distance friendship for him - it is not emotional for him - and he has disengaged quite a bit, it is me that holds on...I think he allows our R to continue for my benefit because he doesn't want to hurt me by putting a stop to it even though I know he thinks he should...I think he is hoping it will just fizzle out so that he doesn't have to make me feel bad. And for those who don't realize this...we are talking about a long-distance EA that is just by phone/computer. I have absolutely no expectation that we would ever end up together.
I know most people think my situation is really sad...(of course, other than those who just like to judge me and haven't ever been in my shoes)...but I will point out that I generally am genuinely HAPPY in my day to day life. In all my other interactions and connections - fantastic kids, great career, associations I'm in, family/friend network, activities I love and have a passion for, etc. - so I am not miserable...but I do live with a constant cloud. Sometimes I think this is just the lot I've been dealt to live with and I have to suck it up and just deal with it...and that I should count my blessings that all the other parts of my life are so good.
I did the other day start to make a couple moves...I decided I am going to stop the silent, passive aggressiveness and start talking again...and try to rejuvenate at least some meaningful conversation. Obviously, my old complaints that he never talks to me and never connects with me didn't work for all those years so maybe I have to try leading by example and force him to engage in the kind of conversation I desire by asking more leading questions...
Maybe, since I do agree that he HAS to have a clue that I have given up, he will see it as a sign of hope and something will happen...we'll see...I figure since I obviously am not going anywhere TODAY I might as well try something...
I think you need to let OM go entirely (there's no future there, and even if you were both divorced I think you'd eventually learn that he's not a great choice. He doesn't sound like someone who treats a wife too well). And I'm sure you can find plenty of other good friends. You really don't need him.
One thing you might want to consider is a separation from your husband. You may need some time for yourself and some distance to think about things. If you were to do this you should not date and just focusing on your life, where you want to be, where your marriage is and learning what life would be like without it. Maybe even date your husband during the separation. Try to build a friendship. A good book on separation is "Getting Back Together." (yes, the title is a little misleading!). It gives good advice on separation and eventually getting back together. It taught me that separation can be very healthy.
In the meantime, ask your husbands questions, show an interest in him, show respect and admiration and sexually attack him every night for the next two weeks...
and then come back online and tell us what's going on.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Hey!I have been where you are. Sort of. I would like to validate your pain and hurt. That sucks that you do all the work to plan these activites and then it's like he takes credit for them and does not even share the enthusiasm with you. It seems he doesn't want to give you any appreciation or attention. No strokes.
I think your H does love you but has some truly major issues. Ofcourse I think you have some major issues that are hiding underneath your frustration with his issues. So perhaps it's time for both of you to heal.
I got the book for you. Men are from Mars and WOmen are from Venus.
I think things can get better:
One way to make certain that a man won't talk is to demand it from him.
Just talk and slowly he will open up.
The fact that he gets excited about the things you do together (though he only shows it to other people) lead me to believe that he would be up for the Appalachian trail etc.
You say he's never said how beautiful you are but often says I love you, you just don't believe it.
I think the going away for the weekend and talking about the R is awesome. He went! He listened. He didn't understand.
You asked him what he thought you wanted he said, I know what you want, a companion and then you scolded him like a little child and told him all all the things you wanted, which are things you get from a COMPANION.
When a man gets really selfish, it's because he's given up.
I can understand how confused and hurt he must have been. He was trying. He went away on a weekend with you. Allowed you to rant and rave about the R, he just doesn't know how to give you what you want. He doesn't understand. ANd he's afraid to try anymore.
What if when he had said the companion thing, you instead were, oh, yes, that is what I want, I want it so much, what make sa good companion? And then he could explain further.
Right now you are minimizing everytihng good about him and maximizing everything bad.
However, it's interesting because with the om, you are maximizing all the good, he talks to you, he understands, he reacts...and minimizing all the bad. He never says I love you, he cheats on his wife, he's hoping things will just fizzle out, cause you really aren't that important to him.
Look, ofcourse he's goin to say he's happy for you that you got in the paper. THat's easy to do with someone whose popularity doesn't affect your life in any way. Your husband may have not reacted because he already feels that the power is so far on your side that if he gives you any more strokes, you'll just think you are too good for him.
I think you are the perfect candidate for DBusting. Get out a journal. Write down the small things that you want to change, bring them down to baby steps and give it a try. Then notate what happens and stop going down cheeseless tunnels! Underlining things in a book that he doesn't understand? I think he just doesn't understand how to do this so he's given up. Ofcourse he needs intimacy everyone does. However, maybe something reallly really hurtful happened to him as a young child so he doesn't open up his feelings, to do so, would be an ocean of emotions which is just too scarey. Also, you're staying together for the kids, well, what kind of a father is he?
Now get out that journal and start working. Also! I think you should list down 5 qualities that you like about the guy, even though you also can't stand him. It could even be 5 good memories you have.
"He makes cookies every week, just like his mother."
That was just mean. What's wrong with making cookies? Yum!
Although, with the lack of attention, I could certainly understand your resentment and take it out on things like this. Remember, cookies don't hurt people, people hurt people. lol.
Whitelight - Wow! You know your post really makes complete sense to me. I really think you hit the nail on the head. Especially about minimizing everything good and maximizing everything bad, and then vice versa with the OM. I definitely do that. I also know that we both have major issues...and that it must have been really hard for him to go from being the big man on campus in our R when we first met to watching me go up a corporate ladder and surpass him from a career standpoint. I really know that must be hard especially because a lot of his friends have also become VERY successful with wives who don't work at all. I have NEVER criticized him for this, but I know it must affect him. And on the other hand, the things that I get the most hurt over are being criticized by people like his mother because I don't have time to be really domestic around the house - for years his mother has made me feel like a horrible mother because I don't bake pies and cook huge meals everynight...she will say things about this in front of the whole family and he has never stuck up for me. So that is one of MY issues, which is one of the reasons behind what I said about the cookies because lately my husband has become fanatical about cooking pies, cookies, meal like his mother...and I feel like it's an unconscious statement that he wishes I were more like his mother...(yes, MY issue...) He always tells everyone about how much he does around the house but he never explains that it's because he works from home and I work full-time and travel a lot. I think he works really hard to try to impress people about himself. And I never say anything to anyone about my job or anything, I am very quiet about all of that.
Anyways...couple of new things. I am really involved in a couple of really exciting life-changing things for myself that are giving me a whole new network of women to be around who are really positive. And I'm thinking about some career changes and working on some new projects. So there is so much exciting going on in my life that is really making me happy and feeling more fulfilled on a personal level.
I think this is why I was meant to meet the OM - truly - because it was him that made me feel special as a women in the first place...I mean a WOMAN (attractive, strong, sexual) which can equate to physical/active as well. Before I met him I was lost inside trapped between the little teenage girl that I was when I met my husband and the MOTHER/MATRON image - I never GOT to be that independent sexy woman - my life skipped that whole stage.
And the OM introduced me (through our conversations) to a lot of outdoor activities that he does with his family/wife/friends that sounded like a lot of fun and I decided to try them and ended up loving/passionate about - funny thing is my H has no idea that we wouldn't even be doing all of that if the OM hadn't given me the idea...This has even opened up a whole new social circle for me/my husband/family.
So the new activities/projects I'm involved with now really would not even be in the realm of possibility if I hadn't met the OM. And...as far as the OM is concerned...I think that he sort of served his purpose in my life. Really...he opened me up physically, mentally, emotionally to a lot - and I am not as dependent on him as I was 3-4 years ago. In the last 6 months or so, it really has tapered off and I think I really can let him go. He will always hold a special place in my heart and I will NEVER regret having met him.
Okay, enough of that...So...how to move forward??? That's what is so hard for me. How do I start maximizing the good in my husband when I see nothing now? And how to I start minimizing all the bad?? I don't know how to do it. I like the journal idea but I don't even know how to pick small things that I want to change. Everything just seems so big and overwhelming. I don't even know where to begin. And it seems like everything I would like to change involves changing my H and I thought we can't change people?
Okay...here's one...I would like him to at least notice how I look instead of looking through me or only noticing when it's something to make fun of. I leave for work everyday looking very nice, put together...and he barely looks my way and never says a thing. If we go out together and I'm all dressed up he hardly EVER says anything. Although he will LAUGH at me if I look funny for some reason. And on the rare occasion that he does say something it is always the identical thing "You look nice."
Here's another one...I would like him to treat me with more respect. Such as not walking 10 feet in front of me, not letting doors slam in my face, not starting the car before he even unlocks my side of the door, not starting eating before I've even sat down, etc....
These are just everyday basics that he's never been able to change...how do I even get him to realize that these things make me feel very slighted and taken for granted. I have mentioned these simple things time and time again for 20 years and it's never improved and I've just completely given up. I feel like if he doesn't care enough to make these kind of changes, how could we ever get to the point of intimate conversations and sharing?
