I want to thank you for being such a good “sport” and staying in the fray with me. I have actually enjoyed this discussion. These types of talks take me back to my college days when we would sit around and debate some philosophical issue. I still do that from time to time with my brothers.
Since you are giving more information about yourself, I am refining my view of you. There is still that something which I am having trouble putting my finger on…..
Actually I did not think I was adamant at all unless you thought I was sarcastic when I said I would look into this issue. I have already started asking friends about this and this will be a topic I look into more deeply. (and I will let my friends and family know that YOU are to blame for this latest case of introspection!) In fact here is an early theory - I do not try to control others at all however I do try to control my reactions to them, my feelings about them and my interactions with them. So Self Control is a big desire for me.
Ok, that sort of makes sense, I can go with that…. But still not completely buying the part about not wanting to control others…
And somehow I have always had the ability to communicate (usually) with the "I feel" statements rather than the "you make me feel". Well probably it has a lot to do with my mom. She was tough that way. We always had to take responsibility for our actions regardless of what a sibling did or friends at school did. We were forced to own our mistakes. Yet to your point while we could be punished terribly for our mistakes we always had the knowledge that our parents loved us completely.
Hmmm, with this I had another image pop into my mind, the image of my W telling our kids the same thing. Yep, I think this might be that thing that bothers me so much. I feel some similarity here between you and my W. I guess I don’t need to mention that if something in my W rubs me the wrong way, that same thing in others would have the same effect. Maybe this is what I was reacting to…
My W is also a very upfront, in your face type of person who does not hesitate to call others out on their stuff. She is a psychology major and believes in people being honest and owning their stuff, admitting their true feelings, not hiding behind rationalizations, being responsible for their actions. This all sounds hunky-dory in theory, but in practice, I don’t like to be on the receiving end of it and I know the kids don’t like it either.
While there is real value in this theory, her implementation is all wrong. She will push and confront in her drive to be honest and in so doing, the other person is backed into a corner and losses face. It is all to easy for her to defend herself with this. She is only asking that you be honest and own your feelings, plus she is doing it for your own good because she can separate you from your actions. Sounds good but it sure as hell doesn’t feel so good. Why?
My W is using her superior knowledge over the kids to manipulate them into an inferior position. It is a control tactic, but on a more subtle level. She is taking advantage of the kids’ mistakes to reassert her dominance. Teaching the kids the needed lesson does not require and shaming. When the kids lose face, they are shamed. Were they an adult, it would be their issue on how they choose to feel. But I do not think it is necessary for them to endure this at all.
Perhaps I have been unconsciously doing some of that myself. I have had to adopt her techniques in order to fight fire with fire and I guess I have picked up this one. Time to rethink this. My mother used to tell stories of how she was punished as a kid. My grandfather would reprimand by telling a parable, then make the kids think about it the rest of the day (she did say her older brother was once tied to a tree to think things over for something real bad he had done, but hey, this was pre-war Japan). Maybe I need to read up on more parables.
Fearless, do you think your ex could have felt the same sort of thing from you. You say you don’t control, at least overtly. You call people out to assume responsibility for their actions. That seems natural for you. But if that person was not raised to do this and came from a shaming background, as your ex may have, then your method will be very difficult for him to deal with. Furthermore, the logic of why he should own his feelings is irrefutable, so he really has no defense. If he can’t deal with his shame and he cannot defend himself, then best to just go into hiding, which is what he did.
That brings me back to you and my wife. I told my W that she needs to be aware that she is putting the kids into a corner and leaving them no face-saving way out. That is part of what makes my son so angry. He knows he is wrong, but does not want to admit it because W is forcing him to do so. The limits his options even more. No he has to admit he was wrong, plus apologize for getting mad about it. Then W says he is oppositional-defiant! That gets my blood boiling!
This is a subtle but powerful control tactic. It can leave the other person utterly without a defense. W has it honed to a fine art. I’m going to think this over more.
BTW, this whole post came to me as I was writing it. This has helped me pull out an idea I previously had and refine it further, so I could see it more clearly. I would not have had this epiphany had I not pushed the conversation with Fearless. So Fearless, thank you for sticking with me!
Lil,
This is an example of an erroneous assumption. There's no particular reason to assume that hairdog, choc, honeypot, GEL, NJ, cemar, etc. (including me) are staying out of the discussion to "try to be safe."
Sorry for my comment. I did not have you guys in mind when I said that, though I was thinking about CeMar. I see Hairdog, Choc, Honeypot, GEL, NJ, Fran, Karen and others as being very involved on this board. But there are many other lurkers.
LFL,
Cobra, I think you are a very interesting man. But in my opinion, you are your own worst enemy. Searching for THE ANSWER in human behavior/psychology is going to be fruitless. And the more you dig in your heels, the more difficult of a time you are going to have in your M.
I you keep in mind my comments above concerning my wife, you might see that my path is really not fruitless, but a necessary way to counter the control of my wife. It is not easy to do, but I have been able to move our marriage forward, though I’m sure my W will say it was SHE who moved it forward.
Fearless,
Taoists follow the art of "wu wei," which is to let nature take its course. For example, one should allow a river to flow towards the sea unimpeded; do not erect a dam which would interfere with its natural flow.
On one level I do subscribe to this theory. On another, I prefer to cut through with a canal. BTW, this may lead into another discussion, but for those enamored with eastern philosophy (and I would include myself), there are some weaknesses with seeking too much harmony. Inner peace is well and good as long as it does not foster complacency. The conflict oriented style of Christianity is one of the biggest reasons for the rise of Europe and western civilization over the Far East, IMO. Conflict can be bad, but it can create innovation and advancement. Just look at what war does for technology. Harmony and confrontation (or as MrsNOP said, conflict and resolution). Carrot and stick. Ying and yang. Male and female.
