Discussion on MrsCAC4 thread - Making assumptions

[fearless]

First, the whole assumption issue, I think there are a few different overlapping issues here. I agree with Lil that there may be a few different assumptions going on here. I thought I stated this clearly before that assumptions are part of human behavior and we are FORCED to make assumptions in most cases and need to make assumptions too (we cannot sit around and wait until all facts are on the table either and we have to consider that some facts may not be true as in a person's declarations. However I think in a relationship if you cannot trust a person to be open to you there is already a bigger problem than the assumption issue although that can complicate it which is my point). My main point was not to MISTAKE an assumption as fact. Cobra probably does a good job with assumptions in many cases but I believe his bigger problem can be the few times that he is wrong, he is not aware or is unwilling to see he is wrong because he is so entrenched in his belief of the assumption as fact.

Second, I have not known exactly how to respond to Corri and others because I have "assumed" that Cobra and I were conversing just fine about the subject at hand. As I said I knew things were narrowing toward me and my issues but I accepted that risk by throwing out personal examples. I also understood that in this case, like many others in life, Cobra HAD to make assumptions because he knew nothing of my story and background. Again the real discussion point I tried to start earlier was how ENTRENCHED and absolute CObra can come across with his assumptions in some cases and how, at least in the story of the woman and her boyfriend, he pulled 3 specific details out of a paragraph I wrote that a) I had not written anything about and b) were not true to the story. I just thought it was interesting.

And to let everyone know again I do not take this personally. Of course raven jumped in to the fray. He was not so much trying to protect me, nothing wrong with that even if I can take care of myself ;). He just felt he had some FACTS that would clarify things about me.

My problem has been trying to figure out exactly what that dysfunction is.

And as far as my real problem... I started writing about ONE of the issues that I have definitely identified with counseling (and honestly I have been aware of it but did not understand the depth of it. yeah like every other dysfunction. I know I know) and have started to try to work through it. I'll try to post it later today or tomorrow. Then Cobra and decide whether it is right or wrong I've wasted a lot of time and money in therapy is it's wrong!


I am having trouble understanding exactly why you object so strongly to assumptions.

I hope I stated it clearly in the first paragraph but I am going to stop to repeat. I have an issue when assumptions are so entrenched that someone, not Cobra specifically but people in general, cannot recognize facts which are contrary to the assumption. I do recognize that assumptions are essential to living in this world.

I know you are adamant that you do not control.

Actually I did not think I was adamant at all unless you thought I was sarcastic when I said I would look into this issue. I have already started asking friends about this and this will be a topic I look into more deeply. (and I will let my friends and family know that YOU are to blame for this latest case of introspection!) In fact here is an early theory - I do not try to control others at all however I do try to control my reactions to them, my feelings about them and my interactions with them. So Self Control is a big desire for me.

But the fact that you hoped for something from your H, a man you knew (consciously or unconsciously) was lost in his need to please others, means to me that you may have been expecting a quid pro quo.

Possible but I do not think so. First, I am not a quid pro quo type of personality. I can give a long list of examples but right now I'll just "assume" you can believe me on this one. Second xH was not really lost in a need to please others but had a need to not feel pain from displeasing others. An important difference in the issues he is working through. I also thought your comments to Hap were useful. I planned to write her more in depth about it although I completely agree with your idea about to yours about then make a clear distinction between that love and his behavior. xH never learned that distinction.

The actual incident itself is not important. What seems to tick you off is that he would not make himself vulnerable to your attempts to understand and sooth him and then he would not acknowledge your anger at being blocked out. He even went so far as to deny he was the source of your anger and that you actually brought it on yourself. Did I get that right?

Actually it was the "incident" itself for me. I really just saw this at it's core as a straightforward issue. I admit I was angry especially early on when we were dating and I was not as aware of his issues. I saw him as being purposely disrespectful and as trying to leave me "high and dry" on the weekends - him with his plans with friends and me at home alone because it was too late to make plans. yeah I eventually got more sympathetic when I realized it was not about ME. And somehow I have always had the ability to communicate (usually) with the "I feel" statements rather than the "you make me feel". Well probably it has a lot to do with my mom. She was tough that way. We always had to take responsibility for our actions regardless of what a sibling did or friends at school did. We were forced to own our mistakes. Yet to your point while we could be punished terribly for our mistakes we always had the knowledge that our parents loved us completely.

The following quote is from my original thread so the writing and tone are different but I am too lazy to rewrite the story even though I desperately want to edit this passage!!!

It's difficult for my H to hear criticism and deal with mistakes because his parents never made him face up to anything. I'm on a roll so bear with me! An example I use all the time of his family's intense conflict avoidance - when my h was 23, he and a friend were at my FIL's pond fishing and drinking beer. My FIL, who doesn't drink, walked up and saw the beer before they could completely hide it. Yes I did say HIDE IT by throwing a shirt over it. I know - like they were 16 or something! So FIL doesn't say anything about the beer. 2 days later he approached my H and tells him that he is disappointed in H's friend for bring beer to the pond!!! And my H just says nothing; letting his friend take all the blame. We were dating at the time and that story bothered me soooo much on so many levels. Compare that to me. When I was 16 my great aunt took me to Europe for a month. My mother doesn't drink either but I told her directly that I would be drinking on my trip. I explained that it was legal there and that I would not be driving and my Aunt would be with me so I felt that it was okay for me. She wasn't happy at all and we did argue BUT I felt so grown up being honest with my mom. And she always appreciated my honesty. So I guess i said all of that to think about how differently h and I approach conflict. It really led us into some major communication issues. I'm now a big believer in counseling and would encourage couples to go before they have problems because I am not sure how we could have worked through the issues without a counselor.

Fearless, do you think you did everything you could in your marriage to help him on that journey? Isn't this what you want to know?

Of course. By now I am sure you have guessed that I have a strong loyalty personality and a strong desire to DO THE RIGHT THING at all costs. (Which is why Raven can still broach the subject of reconciliation with remarried xW. They have children and of course the right thing would be for those great kids to have 2 parents under the same roof)

So far xH and counselor do not believe I could have done anything different. Not in any way that I am perfect!!! Actually the counselor commented that the only thing he would have recommended was that 5 years into our marriage when xH began an EA with a woman at work, I should have put my foot down and pushed for a separation to show how seriously wrong his actions were since he would not listen to me. And it "probably" would have forced us into counseling unless xH would have just let me leave which is a very real possibility. That lifts some weight off my shoulders because, that may sound great in theory, I did not view divorce as a possibility. For more info the EA never became a PA but open the door for the next EA which did. But that is a whole new chapter in this discussion and I do not think it is necessary for us to go there.

So to reiterate, I think Cobra and I understand each other better now. We might not necessarily agree but I do not think either one of us "needs" agreement.