Discussion on MrsCAC4 thread - Making assumptions

[Corri]

BB:

Because... I wasn't talking to Cobra.

I have not talked with Fearless and DERaven as I have with Cobra. What I see of Fearless, thus far, is she will say what is on her mind, and she does it in a very frank way. She leaves nothing on the table, so to speak. She is unafraid of confronting herself, as are most people who have been thru the horrors of D. However, in her frankness, she assumes that others are at the point of 'frankness' as well.

Fearless engaged this conversation. Even though Cobra first responded, she engaged. The impetus is on her.

Seek FIRST to understand, BB. THEN to be understood. It is at the heart of all advice that NOP gives, if that helps.

Corri

[Burgbud]

Seek FIRST to understand, BB. THEN to be understood.

I've read The Seven Habits. I disagree that it applies more to Fearless than it does to Cobra. If your view is that Cobra has tried to understand Fearless before analyzing her and telling her what's in her head, then that's where we differ.

[fearless]

Corri,

Intuition probably depends on perspective and context. I believe Cobra may have been intuitive with your situation and with others however he does not seem to "get" me very well. I say that because not much of what he directs specifically at me about how I feel rings true. BUT I am okay with that because I know I am a bit different and especially because he does not know much about me.

Obviously the discussion that was started on Mrs.cac4's thread was more about general issues and since then it has digressed into a personal exchange discussing my past marriage. I do not know if it was accidental or not on Cobra's part but I have consciously let it continue that way because I felt that he did not want to discuss his own issues and was more comfortable pushing at my issues. Plus this might be his way of trying to gather more data on me.

I really do not know anything about him or his situation but I do know that he can be forceful and quick to a judgment. That is not necessarily a bad thing and can be a great thing in certain occupations. I would liken it to a baseball player. The batter has to evaluate a pitch and make a split second decision to take a swing. A great batter doesn't even bat .400. But that same quickness to judgment might be a hindrance in other areas of life.

I appreciate hearing different views even when it's not comfortable. I believe I should be open enough to look at the possibility that there is a different way of looking at things. And even if I am just defending my point, it can be helpful to look at things from a different angle. And that is why I am willing to share my story again because I feel it is different than many stories but still shares enough similarities to give others a fresh perspective on themselves, their spouse and their marriage.

I appreciate that you are protecting Cobra and his feelings. I would hope that if I do overstep a boundary or hurt his feelings that he would let me know.

Fearless

[Corri]

Fearless:

You are missing it. Come now, dig deep.

Corri

[Corri]

You want to be understood. Nothing wrong with that. Let it go. Now understand. You cannot expect of him what you are unwilling to give. You do this with DERaven. Automatically. You cannot with Cobra, because he rubs you the wrong way. Seek FIRST to understand.... you ken?

Corri

[DERaven]

And you never will. It is a futile exercise. Read Dieda. He explains this very nicely. My views on assumptions have nothing to do with reading the other person’s mind. I make assumptions in order to put myself into their shoes, to try to understand them for MY sake, not for their sake. It sounds like your ex wanted you to read her mind to better please her. That is placating and a no-win situation. She will keep changing the rule to keep you dancing.

What I was trying to say before is that understanding your ex would be for the purpose of trying to see things from her perspective to better understand her complaints about you. If you agree that her complaints are valid and should be acknowledged, whether you agree with them or not, you then need to understand why she says what she says, and how you play into her complaints. Does that make sense?

It makes sense. I just do not understand how I would get there through assumptions. I have found success through actively listening and validating feelings. By doing so one does not have to "dig in" to defend a position. The other person is more open to a dialog about the issue and will communicate. I don't have to make assumptions to try and understand for my sake. I can get understanding through meaningful communication because the other person sees that I am genuinely interested in his/her feelings.

Cobra, I have to say as a man who sees the mistakes he made in his marriage and as the father of a D8 I don't understand your views at all on relationships or child rearing.

I don’t know what confuses you.

I know. I was just thinking out loud. I don't really need to understand. I accept your right to have other POV's. I just don't have to accept them as correct.

[DERaven]

You don't have to understand it. You simply must respect it first, as you do Fearless... then come at it.

Corri, I know I don't have to understand it but I don't have to respect it. I acknowledge his right to profess it. I don't understand the KKK nor do I respect anything about that organization but I do acknowledge their right in this country to profess their ideology.

Cobra is not attacking. He is discussing his view point. Believe me, you KNOW when he is attacking.

I know he is not attacking. I have sampled enough of his postings to realize that.

So. I understand your 'protection' of Fearless as she is your SO. But. I see Fearless as fearless... she can stand on her own two feet... and BOTH of you need to understand Cobra... before you rush to... conclusions.

Corri, no you do not understand me. You don't know me. I am well aware that fearless needs no protection. She can hold her own quite well. I would never insult her by "coming to her rescue." I was just trying to give some clarification to her situation.

[Lillieperl]

It occurs to me that cobra and fearless/deraven may be operating from different definitions of "assumption," one negative and the other positive, or at least neutral.

My hypothesis, after hastily reading through this debate, is that by "assumption," fearless et al. mean extrapolating beyond the evidence, thinking you can read the other person's mind. I'm thinking that they're really meaning "unwarranted assumption." They're taking it as borderline insulting, i.e., disrespectfully (and arrogantly) thinking you know what's in someone else's head without bothering to ask.

OTOH I think that by "assumption," cobra just means imagining where the other person might be coming from in order to orient yourself, trying to see the other person's POV. I think he means it respectfully, as in giving the other person the benefit of the doubt, putting yourself in their shoes, etc.

[Cobra]

Hmmm… interesting conversation just after I walked out of the office. Maybe some good came out of it. I never felt Corri was so enamored with me! (Come on Corri, admit it).

Don't know that we could EVER be married... but.

Harrumppphh… you would adore me! Anyway, for your kind compliments….. (…drum roll…..)… THANK YOU!

But seriously Corri, I sense you circling around what I was trying to put my finger on with Fearless, but never could quite identify. I admit that her clarification of herself and her H is much different from what I initially had in mind.

I believe Cobra's assumptions are coming from the study of human character, and what he has learned about base actions of the human animal when presented with certain situations.

Exactly. I’ve mentioned before that I try to find patterns. This goes back to my experience with technical analysis in stock and commodity markets, specifically Elliott wave theory. That theory assumes human behavior repeats in predictable patterns in response to similar conditions. The mass psychology of the market reacts in the same way because of innate human reactions to fear and greed.

I see very similar patterns in relationships. I am still learning to identify those patterns. Unfortunately there is no book like there is in technical analysis. But I do know one thing for sure and that is people react the same to their fears. The fears themselves may differ, and the way people chose to manifest those fears differ, but the very bottom common denominator is always the same.

On this basis, I believe assumptions can be made. I often miss the particular way a person chooses to react, but once I can hone in on that, then the full picture often comes into view. It is not intuition, insight, or anything of the sort. It is just a matter of simple observation, remembering past patterns and understanding why those happened, and seeing if any patterns match the current situation.

Hap said: The thing about Cobra is he just won't let up until he's got it. Why would anyone let up before they got it? There is an enormous amount of learning in the continual push to get it. I may go into a discussion thinking one thing and it can completely turn into something else and set off light bulbs that I never anticipated. In fact, I think I get more out of composing my posts than anything else. It forces me to organize my thoughts, and that order can lead to new insights. So I say that everyone should push a little more.

Conversely, for Cobra, being the type of person he is... he will miss a lot, for he concludes things before it ever becomes a conscious thought. In this sense, Cobra is missing a TON of information that would be useful to him. I'm sure this has hit him in his job more than a few times...(???)

Yes and no. In my work I miss very little, based on the information I have. The problem is that none of us really have complete information. I remember as a little kid in grade school listening to some older kid on the bus mouth off why he thought Barry Goldwater would make a better president than Nixon! Now I knew I didn’t know squat about politics and I knew there was no way he could know anything either. I decided to maintain an open mind on all matters and not take any positions until I was old enough to know what I was talking about.

After college, and especially working in the portfolio management arm of a trust bank, I came to realize NO ONE knew what they were talking about. I was every bit as knowledgeable and capable of making decisions for large sums of money as anyone else. In fact, if I couldn’t do it, who could do it better? I saw plenty of older, “seasoned” veterans make some stupid decisions. I decided it was time for me to become accountable and take a stand. I began to state my opinions, backed up by plenty of study.

I also realized that uncertainty is always with us and can never be eliminated. I tend to be very risk averse, too much so. That can make a person freeze up. Ignorance can be bliss in a way because too much knowledge makes you aware of the danger in every move, yet inaction has a cost as well. Portfolio management is all about taking calculated risk, risks that customers are willing to assume. I had to learn to push myself to take action even though I know there are risks. In life, you have to make certain assumptions and move forward or you can die from stagnation. It is just part of the equation.

So when I make some assumptions in reading about someone’s sitch, I know I take on the risk of being wrong. That is ok with me. This is not a certified, professional advice board. Risk is inherent in every post someone makes. So as long as you are taking on that risk anyway, push it for the most gain possible. Force yourself to learn and force the reader to learn as well. My 2 cents.


As for Fearless, Burgbud, I have been trying to understand her. I was not throwing out random thoughts without considering her sitch. But with what she has said now, I can see I didn’t have the full picture. Whether what I have said so far is good or bad, I think I have pushed her into some new viewpoints. I have also pushed myself. Everyone else is staying quiet, trying to be safe. What is the gain in that?

Hap, I have another idea for Fearless, and yourself that you reminded me of. With your son, I can understand the anger and the shame he is going through. My son is going through some of that himself. It comes from the fear that all the fighting causes. One thing my W has always told the kids when they misbehave is that she always, always loves them, it is just their behavior she may not like. My son internalizes his misbehavior and thinks he is bad because of something he may have done. I think you need to give your son as much unconditional love, support and affirmation as you can. Then make a clear distinction between that love and his behavior, Never let him associate the two together. Change his behavior but keep his self esteem intact.

Fearless, could the same principle apply to your ex? It sounds like he is deeply shame based and internalizes blame as well. If you read the book “The Narcissistic Family” it describes trauma to children as it occurs in very peaceful, calm, families. This is sort of like my cousins that I mentioned earlier. Too little emotion can seem like a lack of concern to the kids. Some emotion is necessary for people to get it that someone else cares for them. I see this as having the same effect as healthy doses of modest jealousy. I wonder if your ex suffered from a similar setting?

If you subscribe to the theory that we all marry into the same level of dysfunction with our spouse, and it seems that you describe your ex to clearly have some issues, then it MUST follow that you are on a similar, though maybe different, level of dysfunction. My problem has been trying to figure out exactly what that dysfunction is. So far you have been holding your own pretty well, but Lil and I ran into a similar situation some time back when talking to Mojo.

I am having trouble understanding exactly why you object so strongly to assumptions. You posted about your sitch:

We were not arguing about a version of reality. The problem was that xH was trying to PROVE why my FEELINGS were WRONG. The basic fact is that my feelings were not wrong. I did not try to logically explain my feelings until he asked. Sometimes I tried to stick up for myself and just say they are FEELINGS and they are mine. But no respect for that so I LET myself (complete ownership for my participation in the dynamic) be drawn in to the logical explanation stage because I HOPED that he would see that as me trying to follow him and accept his needs. Neither way worked, in that my needs of being heard and having my feelings respected were not met.

I think there may be something ion those italicized words. I know you are adamant that you do not control. I agree on an overt level. But the fact that you hoped for something from your H, a man you knew (consciously or unconsciously) was lost in his need to please others, means to me that you may have been expecting a quid pro quo. You do this and then expect him to do that. His shame kicks in and he feels obligated to please, but I am sure he is building resentment. You build resentment too whenever he does not honor your request the way you think he should.

Let’s go back to your original examples:
For example, my xH assumes that I will be upset if he is going out with his friend on Friday night. So first instead of letting me know on Monday he waits until Thursday then he broaches the subject by saying "I know you are going to be mad that I want to go out with Bill but..." Of course I am mad NOW. He knew about this Monday and now it is Thursday and he is leaving me in a lurch as far as plans. PLUS he is telling me how I feel which does irritate me especially when he is WRONG. And finally he has made it my fault that he waited to tell me because I was going to be mad.

The actual incident itself is not important. What seems to tick you off is that he would not make himself vulnerable to your attempts to understand and sooth him and then he would not acknowledge your anger at being blocked out. He even went so far as to deny he was the source of your anger and that you actually brought it on yourself. Did I get that right?

Now don’t get me wrong. Based on this I do think he is mostly to blame for being afraid to face his emotions. BUT, I also see that you have a need to connect with him (which is understandable) but that need is based on your own issues (however reasonable those may be). That he will not validate your need is what seems to make you mad. But is it YOUR choice to get mad, isn’t it? When he denies responsibility for making you mad, it is again your choice that you get even madder.

This is not the stuff that makes a marriage, I agree. But you are still playing a role in this power struggle, and it IS a power struggle. Can you see that? Your fears prompted you to react as you did. Someone else who did not have your issues may not have reacted at all, your ex would not have had the opportunity to invalidate her feelings and this whole issue would never have surfaced. So yes, I do think there is some stuff you can work on.

Your next example:
A husband walks through the door after a rough day and is tired and a bit irritated at WORK. The wife gives him a quick kiss and he mumbles something. Then she assumes he is upset with her and begins pestering him about why he is mad at her. He repeatedly says he is not with a growing irritation in his voice. She says she can hear the irritation and knows he is mad at her and suddenly he IS mad at her. he wasn't mad to start but her constant pestering because SHE KNEW he was mad caused him to be mad.

In this example, I think the woman is pushing to have her sense of connection validated. She is fearing something in his disconnect, so she pushes to open him up to her own soothing, not his. She believes she is doing this out of love for him, so she considers her actions to be selfless. But is this true? If it were, why does she get angry when he pushes her away? If she had no stake in the matter, his reaction would not matter to her. But she got mad. Why? Because she was trying to self sooth her fears of abandonment that were triggered by his moodiness and withdrawal. She definitely has a stake in this game. She is playing a part of this power struggle.

The difficulty in seeing this dynamic is that the woman is playing the martyr. On the surface she is only trying to care for her H. How can she be blamed? But that is the MO of the martyr. That is the pattern. See how it fits?

As far as your ex goes, he now sounds a lot like Honeypot’s H. He is trying to find himself, after living all his life as others have wanted him to. Maybe he will also realize there is always uncertainty and risk in life, but that no one can handle his relationships better than he, and that those involved with him want HIM to handle those issues rather than anyone else. So he needs to step up, take responsibility for himself, prepare himself to accept the blame when things go wrong, just keep moving on toward his purpose (whatever that might be), and know that those around him will still love him and stay with him in spite of any shortcomings he may have, that they have the intelligence to separate his actions from their love for him. Like you said, he does need to accept himself first. Aren't these the fears he is really trying to avoid? Fearless, do you think you did everything you could in your marriage to help him on that journey? Isn't this what you want to know?


Lil,

Just saw your post as I was getting ready to post this. I think you are absolutely right. But, as I mention above, I suspect there is a validation issue associated to assumptions that is irritating fearless.

[Lillieperl]

Cobra wrote
Everyone else is staying quiet, trying to be safe.

This is an example of an erroneous assumption. There's no particular reason to assume that hairdog, choc, honeypot, GEL, NJ, cemar, etc. (including me) are staying out of the discussion to "try to be safe."

I'm staying out of the convo because the precise subject matter doesn't interest me too much. I don't feel particularly passionate about it one way or the other. Besides, you and fearless are well-matched. I've been in these nit-picky fine-tuned convos with you before, cobra, and not only are they not particularly entertaining, at the end of them I usually don't feel we understand any each other any better. Doesn't mean I don't love you... I'm still remembering that nice bolt of silk you brought back from the Crusades... also that case of the clap.