Discussion on MrsCAC4 thread - Making assumptions

[fearless]

Cobra

This is the problem with referring back to my past marriage issues without a full detailed explanation of the marriage dynamic along with each of our (xH and me) issues along with exact explanation of each issue and xH's and mine opinion on each said issue.

I appreciate your recommendations and will consider them. Overall, though, you are totally off-base so far. And to clarify although my marriage is over I am still trying to understand the past so I never make the same mistakes again. Instead I'll get to make all new ones well actually that's why I still read about others mistakes because I hope to avoid them too

Arguing over whose version of reality is correct is a sign of enmeshment on both your parts. Cobra

We were not arguing about a version of reality. The problem was that xH was trying to PROVE why my FEELINGS were WRONG. The basic fact is that my feelings were not wrong. I did not try to logically explain my feelings until he asked. Sometimes I tried to stick up for myself and just say they are FEELINGS and they are mine. But no respect for that so I LET myself (complete ownership for my participation in the dynamic) be drawn in to the logical explanation stage because I HOPED that he would see that as me trying to follow him and accept his needs. Neither way worked, in that my needs of being heard and having my feelings respected were not met.

Yes things were out of balance. I did try to placate often and gave in often because I saw how difficult things were for him. I tried to protect him at times. For all of his Extrovert nature and strength, he was obviously more sensitive than normal. I respected and understood that it came from his family dynamic. He was the youngest and his family was one where everyone tried to make life as pain-free as possible. So my xH developed into a "man" who was uncomfortable with the fact that he was capable of hurting anyone. And this was something he tried to not avoid by projecting things onto me so that he was not the cause of my hurt feelings; I was the cause of my feeling hurt so he did not have to feel badly.

While I do not think my examples are perfect examples I still believe that seeing your assumption as fact is a significant problem. The problem is not that the wife asks "Are you mad at me?" the problem is that she does not believe him when he says NO and the reason is because she is so SURE she is right. Fearless

Again, I do not see this as an assumption issue, but a fight over getting the spouse to validate your views, and therefore you. Cobra

I do not understand your point. The argument about validation would be if the wife said, "I feel that you are mad at me", the husband said "you should not feel that way", she says "well I do", etc. That would be asking the husband to validate her feeling that he was angry. BUT in the example I used, the wife does not state a feeling but rather pressures her H because she is so certain that he is mad. There is no room for validation in this situation because of the way the argument is phrased i.e. her assumption as fact that he was mad.

However I think the point is clear that in most arguments there is more than one issue going on which is why I stated in the previous post that "assumption as fact is a significant problem" which is not the same as the only problem or even largest problem. However it can be significant enough to complicate already complicated issues.

Which usually means it becomes a bigger issue than it should have been but then that feeds into the original fear which causes the cycle of avoidance again. Fearless

Nope. This is an assumption on your part and denial of how he feels. You may not think it should be a big issue, but he might. Whose sense of “big” is the right one? Cobra

xH and I are on friendly enough terms and separately we are both attending counseling so that helps with this interpretation. In this case there is no assumption on my part because xH was the one that came up with this explanation. I will let him know that you think that he and the counselor are not on the right track.

And for further explanation using the previous example if he had told me on Monday that he wanted to go out with Bill on Friday, I might have asked him if Saturday would work better or have requested that he get home by 1:00. Nothing dramatic but not complete and full "support" of his plans. This would be hard for him. So by putting it off until Thursday night he avoided the "pressure" of my requests but then I would be angry which would be bigger for him. Trust me this is all his definition of big and not mine. For me none of it would be big but I did understand that he was different than I was.


What was the reason for you trying to change the dynamic, to get him to see your logic so he would change? You think that because you “made” all these changes that you are the flexible, open minded one, but I don’t see anything about accepting him as he is. That makes all your past efforts paramount to control, and he knows that, doesn’t he? Cobra

I do not follow this one either. I did not want my xH to change; I wanted the marriage dynamic to change. I did not want to be taken for granted with my feelings discounted or demeaned. I did not and still do not see how this is about him changing.

What do you mean by accepting? I did accept him completely. He knew that and he would tell you himself today that he was accepted by me. The problem was that HE DID NOT ACCEPT HIMSELF. And he began to see that as my problem; somehow I was supposed to be able to MAKE him accept himself. (This is where the complicating MLC issue entered our picture. His past coping mechanisms were beginning to fail and he did not know how to handle it) I wanted to believe that I could help him see himself as he was and to see how great he was. He had no need to change himself he only needed to accept who he was. I wanted to help him accept himself.

And on top of that another issue he has is that he has wanted other people to take the lead in his life and change him however he also saw unconsciously (or barely consciously) that want and need as weak and hated himself for it. So that put me in a box because at times he wanted me to control him and would be angry if I did not but other times he fought against that feeling of control. (Again this is HIS and the counselor's explanation)


I was very open about communicating what I was upset about but xH was so sure that he knew the real issue. I could tell him until I was blue in the face that waiting to the last minute showed disrespect for me and did not allow me to make my own plans for the evening. Fearless

More attempts at control…. Cobra

***I am baffled at this one. Are you saying that being willing to communicate openly and honestly is a controlling behavior?? I do not agree with this at all. I MUST be missing something. Please respond to this question. ***

But he just KNEW that the real problem was that I was jealous, wanted him to be home with me and did not want him to go out with his friends so he believed it was my fault that he would wait until the last minute to let me know about these plans. Fearless

So he tries to control you and convince you that he is right and you are wrong. Are you seeing the dynamic? Cobra


Again you do not know the whole situation. This was about him getting what he wanted and making any issue I had with his behavior be about me. He really did not care about controlling me; he wanted to get his way without having to acknowledge that his actions would hurt me.


I do not mind that xH assumed things about me but I did mind that when I tried to explain what I really felt, I was told that I was not being honest and did not know what I felt. At least after counseling I have gotten validation that I was right after all. FWIW.

The mistake your counselor made, IMO, is affirming that you are right and your H was wrong. Now you’ve got a stick to force your opinion onto your H, right? I bet he doesn’t like that too much, and it probably makes him even more resistant to hearing you (assumption on my part!)

Again a lot of context and many years of marriage and personal counseling went into that quick statement. There was not a dynamic of the counselor agreeing with me and calling my xH wrong. xH liked the counselor so much he has continued to see him alone. Our counseling was never about me having a stick to force my opinion onto xH. Rather he initiated counseling to PROVE to me that I was the one at fault for the issues in our marriage so it would be easier for him to leave me. The fact that the counselor liked us, thought we both had issues that needed to be worked on and felt that we could work through them really confused my xH. xH liked the counseling and oddly many times worried that the counselor had been rough on me.

My xH was/is a deeply complicated man and not much of what you have written here applies to him or to me. But thank you for trying and I can understand that in this case there is so much missing information that you would have to make assumptions to even try to converse about this subject.

I will consider the controlling issue though and I will keep an open mind about it. I know I do have an issue with maintaining my own control but I never thought I tried to control others. Rather I think that I try not to control people and I try not to let others control me. My friends do not think that I am controlling at all. They also do not think I am subservient either. I think the dynamic with my xH was due to his lack of self and without xH having balance I seesawed according to his leaning.