Because this seems like a larger topic and to not hijack Mrs.cac4's thread
Here is the link to the thread where this discussion began. I am placing Cobra's response to my last post here. And I'll respond here instead on Mrscac4's thread.
This is a great example of a communication issue that YOU have. You filled in the blanks of a story to fit your expectations. Why did you ASSUME that the woman was no longer with the boyfriend and that she was now married to someone else?
Because the article said past boyfriend, not husband. This brought up another thought….
Yep, I do make assumptions. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong. In dealing with people, I believe you HAVE to make assumptions. Those need to be as well grounded as possible and free of projection, but even if you ask the other person how s/he feels in the hopes of not making an assumption, you still run the risk of using that person’s assumptions. There is no absolute in dealing with human emotion.
Furthermore, I believe that if you want to be more empathic and compassionate, you will have to make assumptions all the time. Your partner will rarely come right out and tell you exactly how s/he feels. S/he may not even know. But s/he wants you to show that you care by taking the time to read into his/her feelings, connect the dots, and then come to the right conclusion (connecting the dots scores no points if your conclusion is wrong). So it is a tough chore IMO. It takes practice, perception, some intuition (which is why I was asking questions of LG, that reminds me, I need to get back to him…)
Let’s take an example… Lou, CeMar, I am going to use you, and I mean no offense, but this is really for you. IMO, they are both scared of blame, among other things. This in turn comes from their FOO issues, whatever they may be. NOP recently gave Lou some very good advice to go dancing. It was too much for Lou to face and he deflected with several reasons why he could not do it. Then he was right back in complaining mode about BB, wanting her to change but unwilling to push himself out of his own comfort zone by facing his own shame issues and changing himself. I believe NOP is right in that a stuck marriage needs to move off center to move forward, however that needs to be done..
It occurred to me that Lou is actually cut from the same cloth as CeMar, less the obvious anger. Both Lou and Cemar seem to need a logical, explicit flowchart of just how all the pieces fit together in order to see who is doing what. More specifically, to see what each person is doing and where his own responsibility lies. Until this responsibility is undeniable, they can deflect that responsibility and maintain focus on their spouse. (Actually we all do this, don’t we?)
But in order to focus on ourselves and the work we need to do, I believe we need to have a good understanding of our spouse. We need to develop empathy and compassion. We cannot read their mind so we need to develop a certain amount of intuition. With that information we can then look back at ourselves to see what we do to cause the pain we now see in our spouse. IMO that whole process requires making assumptions.
I think Lou and Cemar stay logical because it is a way of defending their position, not feeling their spouses’ pain, and therefore not having to confront themselves. Logic can seem irrefutable. The jump to making assumptions can seem so illogical. There are countless stories of people making poor assumptions and creating bigger problems. It is all a risk. It is life. It requires personal responsibility. I believe we must push our boundaries, take the risk of being wrong, learn from it, and go on. I heard something on TV last night… it referenced Winston Churchill saying:
“Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.”
As I looked up that quote I also find another of Churchills: “No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism.”
So I have no problem with making assumptions. I try not to push the limits of my assumptions too much, but I will push them. I feel this is important for me because I used to be more like Lou and Cemar and I am trying to move away from that model.
I cannot respond the the minimizer/maximizer comments yet because I am not familiar with those terms. At first I "guessed" that maximizer was the same as perpetrator but I do not think that is accurate. But is the reverse accurate - is the maximizer the victim? I don't think that's true either. I'll have read up on it later when I have time.
Minimizer/maximizer really has nothing to do with perpetrator. A maximizer is someone who maximizes their communication style, talking loudly, yelling, hand gestures, animated motions, taking action. Nothing is implied about whether this is good or bad. The minimizer is the opposite – reserved in appearance, collected, not demonstrative, usually not shouting.
When a couple like this walks into a counselor’s office, the maximizer is the first target of the problems, since s/he is doing the talking, shouting, expressing anger. But as we know, that is a reaction to something else, a reaction to get validation. If the minimizer has shut down, then who is the bigger problem? _________________________ Cobra
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Thanks for the response. It seems we have a good discussion started. Okay, first the assumptions about concrete facts. I did not even use the word "past" in my discussion of the boyfriend in question and the word husband was never used. Granted I am an engineer so it is my job to not mix facts and assumptions. Yes even in science assumptions are made but they should always be properly denoted as assumptions. It the case of facts versus feelings (which I will write about later) it is much easier to see when incorrect assumptions are made. In this case you assumed 1) a "past" boyfriend 2) that the woman went back to her dysfunction 3) that she was married. All three issues were not addressed in my paragraph summarizing the article but were inserted by you. We can both read my post to see that I did not mention any of that. Again I know this is being anal but when you do a root cause analysis of a failure, it is important to gather all facts, observations and assumptions and label them accurately.
The second issue is about making assumptions about other people's feelings and/or reactions. Just to be contrary, I am going to bring up the flip side of what you mention "I believe that if you want to be more empathic and compassionate, you will have to make assumptions all the time." The assumption of how someone feels may not feel empathetic or compassionate to that person but may feel condescending and controlling. For example, my xH assumes that I will be upset if he is going out with his friend on Friday night. So first instead of letting me know on Monday he waits until Thursday then he broaches the subject by saying "I know you are going to be mad that I want to go out with Bill but..." Of course I am mad NOW. He knew about this Monday and now it is Thursday and he is leaving me in a lurch as far as plans. PLUS he is telling me how I feel which does irritate me especially when he is WRONG. And finally he has made it my fault that he waited to tell me because I was going to be mad. The assumption actually created the very situation he supposedly wanted to avoid. What about another example: A husband walks through the door after a rough day and is tired and a bit irritated at WORK. The wife gives him a quick kiss and he mumbles something. Then she assumes he is upset with her and begins pestering him about why he is mad at her. He repeatedly says he is not with a growing irritation in his voice. She says she can hear the irritation and knows he is mad at her and suddenly he IS mad at her. he wasn't mad to start but her constant pestering because SHE KNEW he was mad caused him to be mad. So in my mind assumptions can be dangerous because they affect how you approach a situation and then you can cause the exact reaction you originally assumed.
Of course we are human so our brains are wired to fill in blanks and make assumptions. However it is critical to remember that an assumption is not a fact and a critical mistake is made with assumptions is when you treat them as facts.
This is interesting because if I look at your assumptions I see a negative assumption in this example. You assumed the woman had dumped or been dumped by the "good" boyfriend and had gone back to her old dysfunction. Why? Is this a characteristic you have in relationships?
Also you stated your assumption so definitively and conclusively I went back to reread what I wrote because I thought I may have inserted some incorrect information in the paragraph. If we had had this discussion orally without having outside observer, you may have even convinced me that I had actually mentioned a husband and used the word "past" in speaking about the boyfriend because you were so SURE of your assumption. So your ability to overstate your assumptions could very much be influencing your relationships.
And to the example of Lou, could not one issue be that he is making a wrong assumption about his wife and that wrong assumption may be driving behavior which is worsening the situation? I have no idea if this is true because I know so little of his story but it could be possible.
Thanks for the Churchill quotes. My personal favorite of his is "If you are going through hell, keep going"
Another quote I love is from Charles De Gaulle when he was asked by a reporter if he was happy, "What do you take me for, an idiot?"
And although I realize I may come across on the boards as an idealist (although hopefully not intolerant ), I assure you that I am a grounded realist. I'm too cynical to be a true optimist but I'm too realistic to be a pessimist. My family and friends have always considered me to be more of a sarcastic cynic and realist. I admit that I show that side more to close friends and family more than strangers or acquaintances.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
The assumption of how someone feels may not feel empathetic or compassionate to that person but may feel condescending and controlling. For example, my xH assumes that I will be upset if he is going out with his friend on Friday night. So first instead of letting me know on Monday he waits until Thursday then he broaches the subject by saying "I know you are going to be mad that I want to go out with Bill but..." Of course I am mad NOW. He knew about this Monday and now it is Thursday and he is leaving me in a lurch as far as plans. PLUS he is telling me how I feel which does irritate me especially when he is WRONG. And finally he has made it my fault that he waited to tell me because I was going to be mad. The assumption actually created the very situation he supposedly wanted to avoid.
I agree with you that acting upon unsupported assumptions can go horribly wrong.
I'm curious as to why your husband is operating from fear about telling his plans to you.
Great question. First I should have used past tense. Secondly xH and I had that dynamic from the very beginning when we started dating in college and he also had that issue with his high school girlfriend. He has an avoider personality in ALL aspects of his life. I think that a large part of it is that any disappointment from a person is so upsetting to him that he delays it until he has to deal with it. Which usually means it becomes a bigger issue than it should have been but then that feeds into the original fear which causes the cycle of avoidance again. Trust me I went through all the stages - thinking that it was all my fault, that maybe I was too forceful and was frightening (all 5'2" of me to his 6'5"), trying to explain how we could both get what we wanted by communicating, let him do what he wanted and not share my feelings with him, etc. We dated 5 years and were married 10 years so there were many chances for me to experiment and try to change the dynamic. And in the end the irony is that I gave up and considered it a character flaw I would just live with and even that did not work.
I was very open about communicating what I was upset about but xH was so sure that he knew the real issue. I could tell him until I was blue in the face that waiting to the last minute showed disrespect for me and did not allow me to make my own plans for the evening. But he just KNEW that the real problem was that I was jealous, wanted him to be home with me and did not want him to go out with his friends so he believed it was my fault that he would wait until the last minute to let me know about these plans.
I do not mind that xH assumed things about me but I did mind that when I tried to explain what I really felt, I was told that I was not being honest and did not know what I felt. At least after counseling I have gotten validation that I was right after all. FWIW.
It is interesting because in Cobra's scenario I am probably the maximizer while xH was the minimizer but because of personality (He's more extroverted and I am more introverted) and gender issues he probably looked like the maximizer. Although I am not certain of this because I still do not quite understand the maximizer/minimizer dynamic.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
In the example you give about your H going out on Friday night, I agree there may be some assumptions at work, but I see the bigger issue as lack of responsibility and differentiation, denial and need for other validation (perhaps these have to do with assumptions too). I think you are correct that your H is avoiding confronting you based on an assumption, but his assumption didn’t come out of the blue. If you ask him, might he tell you he bases his assumption on your past behavior? Since he can’t know the future, what else is he to go on? Sure he should ask you, but he still has a mental picture of what is coming. He is self protecting. I think his fears are largely to blame in creating this issue, but I think your past behavior is also at fault.
He needs to learn to be more honest and direct, not shy away, be less passive aggressive. Perhaps you need to be more receptive to his needs so he doesn’t feel threatened by your response.
Fearless, your second example is more of the same. Assumptions are not the main issue. You really need to read through “Passionate Marriage” to understand what I am trying to tell you. Your examples show the problem with “other validation,” rather than “self validation,” and the need to “hold onto yourself” when your spouse does not do what you would do. Those reactions in turn come from FOO based feelings of abandonment and a lack of understanding in your spouse that he is triggering those fears.
Assumptions and the quality of communication are not the issue. Schnarch directly addresses this point. You and you spouse do not have a communication problem or a problem with assumptions. You two know each other better than anyone else and communicate perfectly. You already know how the other will react. The problem is not the supposedly mistaken reaction, but why the reaction reflex exists in the first place and how to fix that. You are focusing on effect and not cause.
Your groundedness does not bother me, but I think that (and the fact that you are an engineering type) is actually part of your problem. Lil, would you tell Fearless that at one point in my life I could have been considered a little too logical too? Glad I’m past that!
Okay, again in this case xH's assumptions about me were based on his past relationships and not on my initial reactions plus his actions were based on his oversensitivity to disagreement which is a HUGE FOO issue for him.
Quote:
Perhaps you need to be more receptive to his needs so he doesn’t feel threatened by your response.
In counseling 2 years ago he told me I was too receptive to his needs overall. I did everything with the house, shopping, etc. plus worked a full time job where I had the health insurance and benefits because he was self employed. In this particular example the need he had "to be able to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted without any thought of my needs or feelings" is not an "acceptable" part of good marriage. If the need was to have good friendships, then he should have been responsible for keeping the friendships while doing it in a way that respected the marriage.
While I do not think my examples are perfect examples I still believe that seeing your assumption as fact is a significant problem. The problem is not that the wife asks "Are you mad at me?" the problem is that she does not believe him when he says NO and the reason is because she is so SURE she is right.
Quote:
Your groundedness does not bother me, but I think that (and the fact that you are an engineering type) is actually part of your problem.
What problem do I have????
Actually the funny thing is that my xH was an attorney and he believed that I was too emotional and was not logical enough! I always had to PROVE myself to him logically or else he would not accept my feelings. Of course then he would logically dissect my feelings to show why they were WRONG.
Just shows how differently everyone can view things I guess.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Actually the funny thing is that my xH was an attorney and he believed that I was too emotional and was not logical enough! I always had to PROVE myself to him logically or else he would not accept my feelings. Of course then he would logically dissect my feelings to show why they were WRONG.
Ok, now this makes a little more sense, at least to me. Maybe both you and your H are trying to “out logical” one another in your own form of control, which as you know is a defense tactic. This is also mentioned in Schnarch. Arguing over whose version of reality is correct is a sign of enmeshment on both your parts.
In counseling 2 years ago he told me I was too receptive to his needs overall. I did everything with the house, shopping, etc. plus worked a full time job where I had the health insurance and benefits because he was self employed. In this particular example the need he had "to be able to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted without any thought of my needs or feelings" is not an "acceptable" part of good marriage. If the need was to have good friendships, then he should have been responsible for keeping the friendships while doing it in a way that respected the marriage.
Things seem way out of balance and appears to more of a placating and boundary issue than anything.
While I do not think my examples are perfect examples I still believe that seeing your assumption as fact is a significant problem. The problem is not that the wife asks "Are you mad at me?" the problem is that she does not believe him when he says NO and the reason is because she is so SURE she is right.
Again, I don’t see this as an assumption issue, but a fight over getting the spouse to validate your views, and therefore you.
He has an avoider personality in ALL aspects of his life. I think that a large part of it is that any disappointment from a person is so upsetting to him that he delays it until he has to deal with it.
I’m with you so far…
Which usually means it becomes a bigger issue than it should have been but then that feeds into the original fear which causes the cycle of avoidance again.
Nope. This is an assumption on your part and denial of how he feels. You may not think it should be a big issue, but he might. Whose sense of “big” is the right one?
Trust me I went through all the stages - thinking that it was all my fault, that maybe I was too forceful and was frightening (all 5'2" of me to his 6'5"), trying to explain how we could both get what we wanted by communicating, let him do what he wanted and not share my feelings with him, etc. We dated 5 years and were married 10 years so there were many chances for me to experiment and try to change the dynamic. And in the end the irony is that I gave up and considered it a character flaw I would just live with and even that did not work.
What was the reason for you trying to change the dynamic, to get him to see your logic so he would change? You think that because you “made” all these changes that you are the flexible, open minded one, but I don’t see anything about accepting him as he is. That makes all your past efforts paramount to control, and he knows that, doesn’t he?
I was very open about communicating what I was upset about but xH was so sure that he knew the real issue. I could tell him until I was blue in the face that waiting to the last minute showed disrespect for me and did not allow me to make my own plans for the evening.
More attempts at control….
But he just KNEW that the real problem was that I was jealous, wanted him to be home with me and did not want him to go out with his friends so he believed it was my fault that he would wait until the last minute to let me know about these plans.
So he tries to control you and convince you that he is right and you are wrong. Are you seeing the dynamic?
I do not mind that xH assumed things about me but I did mind that when I tried to explain what I really felt, I was told that I was not being honest and did not know what I felt. At least after counseling I have gotten validation that I was right after all. FWIW.
The mistake your counselor made, IMO, is affirming that you are right and your H was wrong. Now you’ve got a stick to force your opinion onto your H, right? I bet he doesn’t like that too much, and it probably makes him even more resistant to hearing you (assumption on my part!)
What problem do I have???? ;\)
Not seeing how controlling you are. Get the book. Actually, get two of them.
In this particular example the need he had "to be able to do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted without any thought of my needs or feelings" is not an "acceptable" part of good marriage. If the need was to have good friendships, then he should have been responsible for keeping the friendships while doing it in a way that respected the marriage.
Is that how he actually put it or is it paraphrased?
The earlier scenario you described is one to which I can relate. My parent's first reaction to anything I asked to do as a child was "no". As time wore on, I would start agonizing about the next event I wanted to go to. I wanted the answer to be "yes" so I spent a great deal of emotional and mental energy trying to figure out how to present my request is such a way that I would get permission/approval/acceptance. I don't recall ever getting a "yes".
As I got old enough, I just left my parents out of the loop totally. So, along with the manipulative thought processes and emotions (the sense that if I could present it just "so" that my quest would be successful), I added sneakiness and lies.
I drug these traits with me into all my other relationships. It appears that your husband has done so as well. Would you say that the majority of the time you are able to happily accept his activities, or is it usually a disapproving response because he waits until the last minute to tell you?
MrsNOP -
edited to add: oops, just noticed it was EXh. So, please change all the tenses.
I need to jump in at this point and clarify that fearless is no longer married. She is refering to ex-husband and the problems that existed in their marriage.
I will let fearless reply to your comments herself, but I will say that she and I have been in a relationship for close to two years. I do not support your assertion that she was attempting to control her ex-husband. Being in a relationship like that with my ex-wife I will tell you that my behavior was controlling and I acknowledged my contribution to the ending of my marriage. I came to understand that telling my ex-wife what she was feeling was wrong. I understand that making assumptions and practicing avoidance was also a problem in my marriage.
I began to understand that while reading Divorce Busting. I began to understand that I needed to accept my ex-wife's feelings as true and validate that. Unfortunately, I could not save my marriage but was blessed with an oppurtunity to have a fantastic R with fearless. I do not believe it is controlling to ask your partner to accept that your feelings are genuine. I listen to fearless and validate her feelings. I don't believe asking your partner to accept your feelings as genuine is forcing your opinion on him/her. They are feelings and if you love and respect your partner they should be acknowledged and validated. That opens the door to further communication.
I don't understand your views on assumptions. I will tell you that my ex-wife expected me to make assumptions, read her mind, etc. and I could never do enough. To be in a relationship where fearless and I can ask for what we want without resentment that it wasn't anticipated is very refreshing. I appreciate that she can meet her own needs. There is no expectation that I should make her happy by instinctively knowing the right thing to say or do.
Cobra, I have to say as a man who sees the mistakes he made in his marriage and as the father of a D8 I don't understand your views at all on relationships or child rearing.
I am the man who is loving my kids and will keep them from continuing this cycle of destruction.
