I am trying to teach my son to be proud of being a male. When the kids were smaller, I told him that his sisters were jealous because they did not have a “winkie”
Yuck. What is with all this "jealousy" crap? And I don't think you are teaching your son to be a "proud male" there, more likely you are teaching him that women are inferior because they lack the "winkie". That's Freud 101 Cobra. Very sexist indeed.
Thanks to NOPkins and the women who posted here with their thoughts.
Here are a few more thoughts.
I don't know that it's even possible to compare girls and boys in this manner. Because of society we are given different messages about sex from the beginning. Women aren't supposed to like it; men are supposed to be studs. (This from CAC4.) There is a double standard as we all know.
It's hard to imagine anything that a mother could say to her son that would be as threatening as this type of innapropriate comments said by a father to his daughter.
My mother was not a sexual being in my eyes. My father was. (And I don't mean I consciously saw them as sexual beings. This was all subliminal stuff.) I'm sure she was uncomfortable with her sexuality. My father was not. Any display of sexual behavior between my parents was initated by my father. I know I saw/heard my mother rebuff him for making what she saw as sexual advances (hugging her from behind when she was at the sink, for example). I think her behavior was not uncommon for a woman of her generation raised in a Puritanistic society.
Now, when my father starts making his innapropriate comments and teasing it is threatening to me. Hell, his sexuality was threatening to my mother! (Or at least I perceived it that way because of what I observed.) Several of the teasing incidents occurred because my mother betrayed confidences by relaying information about me to my father. Double betrayal.
I think the only way that a boy's sexual development could be negatively impacted by his mother would be if she acted in an overtly sexual way toward him. I remember Lil posting about the way her BF's mother treated him and the impact it has had on his sexuality. This is what I'm talking about -- a mother whose behavior toward the son overtly sexual--confusing, inappropriate, possibly even stimulating. The message we get (got) from our society is that mom is supposed to be June Cleaver or Carol Brady, not Pam Anderson. And I don't mean to impugn Pam Anderson. She may be very Carol Brady-like at home with her boys.
The issue of "taboo" and the issue of "crossing boundaries inappropriately" are related, but not identical, IMHO.
Cobra, what if it was your WIFE who said to your son, "The girls are just jealous because they do not have a 'winkie,' and yours is a nice big one."
Would you consider that appropriate in any household?
Anyway, you didn't address my remark: "What we're saying is that, mother or no mother, it is not appropriate for a father to make teasing comments about his daughter's budding sexuality, even if that is the normal, harmless way that guys interact with each other."
I think the only way that a boy's sexual development could be negatively impacted by his mother would be if she acted in an overtly sexual way toward him.
There are plenty of ways a mother can shame the son. If sex is taboo in the family, then any teasing of the boy in a way that is not intended to be complimentary or boosting his ego can be harmful. He will be teased for something he has already been told is shameful. Your assumption is wrong.
Would you consider that appropriate in any household?
In some household yes, in some no.
Anyway, you didn't address my remark: "What we're saying is that, mother or no mother, it is not appropriate for a father to make teasing comments about his daughter's budding sexuality, even if that is the normal, harmless way that guys interact with each other."
In some household yes, with complimentary, non-shaming teasing. In other households, no.
My mother was not a sexual being in my eyes. My father was. (And I don't mean I consciously saw them as sexual beings. This was all subliminal stuff.) I'm sure she was uncomfortable with her sexuality. My father was not.
Interesting. I would say that I didn't really see my father as a sexual being even though rationally I knew that he was one. He was too much "dear old Dad" mowing the lawn in his bermuda shorts with his black office socks. I did see him semi-naked on a few occasions in the early morning bathroom shuffle when I was a girl. At the time my reaction was probably along the lines of a mild "yuck".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
What if she was? How would that different image have affected you?
I'm sure she was uncomfortable with her sexuality. My father was not. Any display of sexual behavior between my parents was initated by my father. I know I saw/heard my mother rebuff him for making what she saw as sexual advances (hugging her from behind when she was at the sink, for example).
What if you saw your mother making sexual advances toward your father at the sink? How would that change your views of sex?
Now, when my father starts making his innapropriate comments and teasing it is threatening to me. Hell, his sexuality was threatening to my mother! (Or at least I perceived it that way because of what I observed.)
Do you know it was threatening or was it her shame-based reaction toward sex you were seeing?
Several of the teasing incidents occurred because my mother betrayed confidences by relaying information about me to my father. Double betrayal.
What if she told you about those incidences with an air of fondness or happiness to the affection that she was receiving? What if she indicated that she actually like her H’s advances, though maybe she wished he were only a little more discreet? How would that change your perceptions?
Interesting. I would say that I didn't really see my father as a sexual being even though rationally I knew that he was one. He was too much "dear old Dad" mowing the lawn in his bermuda shorts with his black office socks. I did see him semi-naked on a few occasions in the early morning bathroom shuffle when I was a girl. At the time my reaction was probably along the lines of a mild "yuck".
Exactly. Nothing sexual or threatening about dad in bermuda shorts and black socks mowing the lawn. He was just dad. I'm glad you had such a great relationship with your dad.
Cobra you're in a hole - stop digging. Watching you contradict yourself like this is pretty hilarious. But I think there is a nugget in there that we have been missing and it is this.
Guys tease when they feel insecure, mature women know this and most have learnt to deal with it, girls need to be shown by their mothers how to deal with it. So if a dad is dumb enough to tease his teenage daughter about the size of her boobs or whatever, the mum needs to tell the dad to cut it out, but then she needs to tell the daughter that one of the primary defence mechanisms of men is "offence" and that a dad is likely to be teasing her because HE is confused by what's going on for HIM and not to take it personally.
Scene: Teenage daughter arrives poolside in new hot pink bikini. This is the first time Dad has seen his daughter's recently acquired womanly figure.
healthy Dad either says nothing different to what he would have said when she was 10, or very healthy dad says "nice bikini - I see I'm going to have to dust off my shotgun"
Unhealthy Dad says "ay caramba, watch you don't turn round too quickly with those things, you might give someone a black eye"
The mother's job, apart from saying "cut that out or I'll black your eye you bozo". Is to explain guy mentality, explain why they tease when they're thrown off balance, explain that she might find herself putting up with a lot of dumb remarks like that from now on and that she may as well use her dad to practise her witty comebacks on.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
