Granted your work and actions may not always been the best DBing possible ….
I believe that with Heather’s past and how that mixed with her personality, combined with the same in her H, that the path she went down is the only one that would have worked. She made a lot of mistakes, but those were really not mistakes, rather the only way for her and her H to learn the needed lessons and arrive where they are today. She should never feel guilty about what has transpired.
]From my POV with reading your thread over the past 2 years I have felt that you were a woman committed to your marriage.
I have no idea how you could possibly get this impression. Heather’s old posts are filled with conditional commitments, and what her H “should” do.
The main reason I feel like this knowledge is important to you is that it could prevent you from over apologizing which I feel is something you have done recently…..
I don’t think Heather over apologized. In fact, I think her recent letters were the only real apology she has ever made. That is part of why I think her H heard them.
I may be overly sensitive but this is an issue that I have almost conquered over the past few years - over apologizing and accepting too much blame.
Yes…
If you are not prone to over apologizing,…
No
I bring over apologizing up because I think it contributes to your interactions and communication with your H.
Again, I do not think she apologized before. She placated and positioned her comments to create one power play or another.
Again I might be wrong, it just appears that this might be part of your dynamic - as in apologizing for buying a coat your H did not like, etc.
That was not a true apology. It was an attempt to ease her own guilt which in turn came from her lack of differentiation and self confidence.
While I appreciated and was pleased with his communication, I am in the minority in that I did not see it as him making any statement about the marriage other than communicating his wants and feelings. Fearless, this is a very dangerous point for you. You are judging the value of his statement based on YOUR values and practices. A man does not think like a woman. DO NOT read into a man’s statements like you would a woman. I think Heather’s H laid it on the line and restated the commitment he always had to the marriage, but never showed.
My opinion is that you should take your time in communication so that you do not send any mixed signals.
This is good for the purpose of avoiding miscommunication or conflicting signals, and for Heather to search herself before responding…
Your H seems to look for ways to control you at least unconsciously.
…but if done with this in mind, then it is manipulative.
Side note: Is this more common than I have realized - keeping finances separated? If it is, why and does it really work?
Yes, and contrary to what Harley proposes, separate finances can remove one MAJOR source of arguments in a marriage. I believe the optimal state is to share finances, but if one person abuses the finances as a means of control, then better to split to up I say.
Heather,
Personally I thought your reply to Fearless showed an amazing change in the view you have of your marriage. Lots of honesty there and a complete turn around in your understanding of boundaries and control. Again, I’m very proud of you!
I’m also with LFL on the church thing… bad timing.
But this has GOT to be addressed. We need to have another discussion this weekend and I could sure use some assistance with putting my thoughts together. I get so overwhelmed by his reactions to things that I don't even know where to start!
This is the look of your anxiety, just as BF says. Try to recognize it. Ask yourself why church is so important now, rather than a month ago. Maybe it was, but why bring it up now?
My wife can do the same thing. Once it was over the color of he curtains. Once she fixated on them, she could not let it go. She took them down and we have not had curtains in the family room for over 6 months. It wasn’t about the curtains or the color. It was about her self soothing through some means of control. What she controls is less important than the fact that she controls something, anything.
That’s why I like it so much when something screws up at her work or with her sisters. Then she can focus on controlling those other people.
I did not mean that Heather hasn't tried her best and certainly did not mean that she should have any feeling of guilt over her work the past 2 years. It was actually you that I was trying to "head off" with that statement lest you think that I was trying to tell Heather that she had done all she could and was "let off the hook" of trying again to work on her marriage.
My post was also meant to be thought provoking and not to be an absolute statement or judgment of Heather or her H.
I have no idea how you could possibly get this impression. Heather's old posts are filled with conditional commitments, and what her H "should" do.
Actually I think her posts were filled with what she wanted her H to do in the marriage which is exactly what he has written in his e-mail. What is wrong with knowing what you want and articulating it? And the fact that I get the impression Heather is committed is because of the work she has done on her self and the fact that with all of her wants from her H she was still staying IN the marriage and working like crazy to fix things. Your opinion that she was not committed is no more or less right than my opinion that she was committed. That's the beauty of this forum that we can see how many different views there can be of the same action.
Over apologizing
Because you are not prone to this, it is a difficult thing to explain and even more difficult to understand. I don't completely disagree with what you wrote but I don't think you understand the dynamic and how damaging it is to a relationship.
Over apologizing is by definition not a "true" apology. How can Heather really apologize for buying a coat her H did not like? She has no need to apologize for it therefore her "apology" is not sincere nor should it be.
Plus I did not diagnose Heather as an over apologizer, I just suggested it may be there. her dynamic with her H suggest it at the least.
The last point is again that both sides' intents are important even if they are not interpreted that way. If Heather does feel like she apologizes and has apologized consistently that is important even if you feel like her apologies are inadequate. That may be your interpretation based on your marriage. You may be looking for more apologies from your W. You may see your wife as controlling because she will not apologize or accept blame.
Quote:
While I appreciated and was pleased with his communication, I am in the minority in that I did not see it as him making any statement about the marriage other than communicating his wants and feelings. Fearless, this is a very dangerous point for you. You are judging the value of his statement based on YOUR values and practices. A man does not think like a woman. DO NOT read into a man's statements like you would a woman. I think Heather's H laid it on the line and restated the commitment he always had to the marriage, but never showed.
This was not a statement or judgment of the e-mail from Heather's H but was an opinion of mine. I said clearly that "I did not see it as a statement from him"; I did not say that "the e-mail was not statement of commitment". There is a difference. Are you saying that it is not useful for men to see how a woman might interpret their words? Again, I think you may be projecting your feelings into Heather's H's e-mail which is normal and okay; it just doesn't make you right anymore than I am right. We just have opinions based upon our own backgrounds and situations.
I would like to understand what it was in your opinion that her H wrote that stated his commitment to the marriage. As a woman I read his complaints and his issues with the marriage and what he wants from Heather. Again that does not diminish the value of his e-mail in my eyes. I just do not read it for more than what I can see - a great start to more open communication and a chance for Heather to look at his point of view and determine how they can communicate better.
Your last paragraph was interesting to me because it clearly states that your wife has a control issue. Is it possible that you project her control issue onto other women? It does happen the other way around also. I think you sometimes see Heather's stands against her H as the same controlling behavior as your W however it may be that she is just swinging too far on the pendulum from taking too much cr%^& from her H to being defiant. While I would agree that she can probably swing too far, I would still argue that she still needed to move from where she was in the relationship. So for her marriage this behavior is actually a step in the right direction while in your marriage this behavior is just more of the same damaging behavior from your W.
As far as splitting finances, I don't think there is only one right way. I'm just curious about other ways. Karen's explanation made sense to me also. What I haven't heard yet is about the fact of determining who gets to spend what depending on how much money they bring into the marriage. I still do not see how that is a healthy situation.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I'm not sure what is in conflict-that I felt close enough to ML to him, but not close enough to assume I would be welcomed back into the bedroom?
This is where I was talking about getting the cart before the horse. The terms of your intimacy with H were not worked out before you ML. Then you came back and mentioned sleeping in the bed after the fact. Did you assume that the terms of your R were renegotiated because of the lovemaking? It's a cheeseless tunnel for you. That's all I'm getting at. It's your responsibility to protect yourself and set your boundaries and enforce them. Coming back later and trying to insert the conditions isn't fair and it's confusing. Just MHO... you H might see it as you looking for a reason to distance after ML, rather than an issue that is important to you. If it was so important to you, why would you ML with someone who won't allow you to sleep in the bed with him?
It's really HIS boundary, not mine. I agree, and I also agree that this seems more like a punishment than a boundary. And yes, I see where you would want to respect his limits on this. Given that you know this hasnt changed, what does it mean for you in the R? And here is where your boundaries come in. Do you see your R as a partnership and a healthy place for you to be intimate (not just physically)? You say that it's the best you can do with a boundary for yourself. This is what Im getting at.. how long are you going to relax your boundaries to accomodate his? If you know that he won't budge on this, and it sounds like he's unwilling to solve this problem in the R.. what does it mean for you? Is it healthy for you to be vulnerable with your H and then face this continual rejection? If someone wants to be in a close personal R with Heather, what does that mean in terms of what they're willing to do to make it a comfortable place for you to be? If they are unwilling to create an environment of friendship, trust, compassion and understanding.. or whatever your needs are.. or at least be willing to try, is it reasonable to expect yourself to commit to being in that R?
I'm not trying to hit you with a 2X4, but hoping you'll consider the messages you're sending. Respect yourself.
I feel like I am. But you're saying it doesn't appear that I am? Well, as far as ML, and then mentioning being banished.. it seemed like you weren't respecting yourself. If you're OK with being on the couch and it's not a condition for you to feel comfortable ML, then you haven't settled. If it isnt comfortable for you, then no, I don't think you respected yourself. You allowed something to happen that in the end bothered you enough that you confronted your H with it. Please just be sure that you don't give more than is comfortable for you. It leads to expectations and possibly disappointment. It's better to be clear about your boundaries and needs before you get back in too far. You've made amazing progress with sorting things out and trusting yourself. You H says he wants his family, and that's great. Maybe the next step is waiting to see what he brings to the table. J always wanted our family.. but the hurt and disappointment came when he wasn't willing to follow through with action. If your H sees your future R much the same as the past.. ugh. If however, he steps up and is willing to create a partnership where your voice is heard, then wonderful. It just seems that he isn't willing to accept that you get to be half of the R. It's like he wants you to conform, and when you don't, he punishes and blames you for everything.
OK, one last thing and I'll get off my soapbox.. you don't have to cut yourself open again. No one gets to decide what you risk in your R but you. If it's not healthy for you to do that, then just don't until you feel it's safe to do that. If you feel strong enough to get out on the limb again and think you need to, then go for it! I'd say.. if exposing your thoughts and feelings is going to just give your H ammunition to hurt and punish you further, then maybe you wanna hold off on that. I guess you have to weigh the benefits of it. He opened this line of communication.. allow him to take some responsibility to continuing it. I was very guarded with my feelings when J first moved home. The trust wasnt there. He mentioned it and I admitted to him that it was a trust issue on my part... that I was committed to rebuilding the R, but needed time to trust him being in my space again. We needed friendship. So basically, we had to prove friendship to each other before sharing our emotions. We had a physical R, but honestly, it was just sex. Over time, as we treated each other with respect and caring, we opened up and started to talk and rebuild. And I wanted to share something that J has stated over and over.. we're on the same team. It's helped to realize that and to say it. We've both had to risk and be vulnerable at time... but we did that with the assurance that our first goal is to be a partnership and work for, not against each other. Forgiveness is key to this.
you don't have to cut yourself open again. No one gets to decide what you risk in your R but you. If it's not healthy for you to do that, then just don't until you feel it's safe to do that.
The reason Heather got into this mess in the first place is that neither she nor her H felt safe enough to make themselves vulnerable. Each kept holding onto a power position waiting for the other to go first. Heather has been extremely brave in backing off this power trip. She is still trying to find the correct recipe to make her self vulnerable in a way her H can hear, but I read your comments as telling her to move back to a defensive position. I think this will only resurrect the power plays.
I'd say.. if exposing your thoughts and feelings is going to just give your H ammunition to hurt and punish you further, then maybe you wanna hold off on that.
Have you read “Passionate Marriage” by David Schnarch? If not, you really should. Self validation is all about weathering these storms, not basing your sense of rejection on another, and all for the very purpose of not falling into the defense cycle. Heather’s task is not to protect herself from being hurt by her H, but to learn to endure his attacks without internalizing them, then express to him in an honest and vulnerable way how he made her feel.
I'll just say this. I generally don't agree with your opinions about Heather's R with her husband and most of your posts IMO suggest that Heather should bow down and kiss her H's butt regardless of how he's broken her back with his attitudes and actions. Heather seems to have come to a place where, for the most part, she knows herself, and although she still loves her H, is confident that she's given enough despite his efforts to convince her otherwise. I think Heather is right on when she says that her H has many qualities that she loves, but there's a limit to what she can continue to suffer to remain in the R.
Schnarch has some good ideas and some that I think are "out there". Think I'll continue doing what's worked to stop the power play in my M. Heather may or may not find a nugget to help her in what I post and that's OK.. she knows herself and her M better than anyone. Thanks for sharing.. like I said, I've never really cared for you point of view either, but this is Heather's little place on the BB and she's smart enough to form her own opinions.
If you think I am recommending that Heather kiss her H’s butt, then you have completely missed everything I am saying. In fact, I think I and others here have pushed Heather pretty hard to stop kissing his butt and stand up for herself, but to do it honestly, with boundaries and not control tactics. In the end, those very control tactics are what keep her in the cycle and keep her kissing his butt. Your comment also tells me you may have missed a lot of what else is said on this board.
