I've been silent, but following along. I've scanned the last week of posts and think I get where you're at, hopefully! If my comments seem out of place, I apologize if I missed something.
You are in the hardest spot and I really feel for you. I'm speaking for my experience which I'm sure won't surprise you! You know my sitch pretty well, so I won't go into history detail where it's not needed. I've just shared what you've been through with J and asked his opinion. Like your H, he felt for years as if I had one foot in and one foot out of the marriage. He was right! I asked him what changed and he said "you grew up". We've talked about it for a bit and it was that I grew up and am now totally committed to our R. He said though, that he also wasnt fully committed to the R and he used my lack of committment as an excuse for his. I asked him what changed that and he said "sitting alone and realizing all I had lost and how I'd be willing to change if I just had a chance to do it.
You've posted about feeling duped and like things will not change. Is it possible that although your H realizes that he wants his family, he's not to the point of doing whatever it takes to keep your M? That's what it takes I think. KNOWING that you want the M more than anything in the world and setting aside pride in order to change and work on the M. J said "gosh, they should go to counseling together and learn to communicate and work through their issues" I said it may not be possible and explained how your H felt about C. J said "then he's not there yet". The disclaimer is that every sitch and the people involved are different. But... I think his email might just be an awakening that he's realizing what he's losing. It doesn't necessarily mean that he's in a place where he realizes he MUST change and do things to make you happy in the R too. He said he asks what do you want him to do now to keep him there. Is it really a matter of what he "does" or is it more a matter of you wanting him to stop doing things that have tore down the R. Stop disrespecting you, stop punishing you, stop playing power games. There's a diff in that line of thinking. I am totally committed now.. for better or worse.. no foot out the door, and for me that is amazing. It's not so much what J has started doing, it's more of what we've both stopped doing. No one wants to feel that they must earn the love of their spouse. We all want to feel that even at our worst, we're loveable.
I've had to give up the notion that he has to "do" anything in order for me to love him. When I think in those terms, I'm trying to control him. However, when I request that he not do something, I'm setting a boundary with him. I can feel confident in that, and not doubt myself. I need my boundaries in order to be healthy and there is a consequence when they're not respected. I damages the R. I'll give you an example. J is irresponsible financially, and lies to me about financial problems and his spending at times. I'm no longer comfortable insisting that he be financially responsible in order to be in a R with me. I am comfortable insisting that he not lie to me about finances though. The first is unconditional love and understanding him as he is, the second is setting a boundary for a trusting R. He can understand why I can't deal with lying, but pointing out his personality flaw, personal struggle that he himself hates makes him feel like I don't accept and love him regardless of his faults.
I've gotten off track.. but wanted to post this in case there's anything from our sitch that might help. Is there a way that you can love who your H is unconditionally, but be firm that his treatment of you is a problem. It's clear to me after reading your heartfelt email to him that there is SO much you love and cherish about him.. you just want the disrespect, control and games to stop. I'd be curious to see your H's list of what he loves about you. It'd be a shame to see two people who adore each other creating obstacles out of fear and control. You know J and I have been there. That's the biggest change we've made to our R, but not the only one.
We started by loving and forgiving ourselves for the past. Have you forgiven your H? You keep coming back to sleeping in the bed and him wearing the wedding ring. Why are you hanging your hopes on those things? Those are his issues Heather and it seems that you're allowing it to control your thoughts and actions. I'd say that you do allow your H a lot of control over your emotions and having been there, it's not healthy. Does it change who you are that he won't let you sleep in the bed and doesn't wear his ring? I'd say not. If it changes how you're willing to be in the R, then embrace that for yourself. Come to terms with it and accept it. It's VERY hard, I know. I've shared with Burgbud our C's advice to us to go about creating a healthy, nurturing R for ourselves. It has to start with you. Clear boundaries, whatever is healthy for you. If your boundary is that you can't ML or be emotionally intimate with a man that won't allow you to sleep with him, then own that as health in your life. By doing that, you have to respect the consequences and enforce them. It can be painful. J lied to me last week. It made me furious.. it made me emotionally sick. I didnt pitch a fit and feel unloved and want out of the R, but I had to enforce the boundary by saying "hey, you've disrepected me and our R. I can't be close to you right now and deal with you." Someone said it as childish that I refused to sleep with him that night. But, it's my boundary and the message was clear to him, and I was OK because I was loving myself enough to not make myself sleep with someone I didnt want to even look at that night. There was no mention of getting out of the R, and it didnt feel that way because I was taking care of myself. As long as I'm willing to do that, I'm comfortable being in this R. If it became a constant, then I'd have to re-evaluate (not my boundary), but what it means for our R in the long-term.
This is rambling and disjointed because I'm in a hurry, but I'm thinking of you and wishing you the best always.
I'm rereading the post about being banished. Sigh.. what is healthy for Heather? This power play is NOT healthy for you. What is your boundary on this? If you opened a door that causes you pain, ML to him, etc when he's disrespecting what you need to have to be nurtured in the R, then you've done something that has hurt yourself and it could add to the confusion. You've sent a msg that you were close and comfortable enough to ML. And now you're asking about sleeping in the bedroom. It's conflicting msgs Heather. Now it seems like you're using the sleeping arrangement as an excuse to not commit to the R long-term. I know that's not the case.. the bedroom is a HUGE issue for you. But, when you send these msgs, your H does not respect them. He doesnt respect that you need to sleep in the bed with him as a W because you don't respect that boundary for yourself.. he might count it as BS and an excuse. I know this is harsh, and I've been there. I've had no respect for my own boundaries in my R with J. He disrespected my boundaries because I disrespected them. I sent a msg that I'd be in the R, but threaten to leave and any glimmer of hope (whether he was committed and respecting me or not), I'd cling to it and climb back in and then I'd start over pointing out what he needed to do and he'd start fearing abandonment again. That's the cart before the horse. In order to even consider having an R again, we had to set the groundrules of respect. That had to come first because without it we were going to get into that cycle of hoping, yet not changing. I'm not trying to hit you with a 2X4, but hoping you'll consider the messages you're sending. Respect yourself. It's OK to say H, I love you, but I can't be close to you without XYZ. How he takes that is his responsibility. You're trying to assure him of a commitment that isn't the truth because you're unable to commit to someone that you feel is mistreating you. As I said before, you don't have to tell him to "do" anything, like let you back in the bedroom. But you can clearly communicate how it makes you feel when you're not welcome there and what that does to your heart and your commitment.. how scary it is for you that it makes you feel rejected and how impossible it is to say that you're willing to live in an environment of rejection forever.
Hey Sheila!!! Good to hear from you. I'm glad to hear that you and J are continuing to work together on your M-I'm really happy for you.
Is it possible that although your H realizes that he wants his family, he's not to the point of doing whatever it takes to keep your M?...J said "then he's not there yet"....You keep coming back to sleeping in the bed and him wearing the wedding ring. Why are you hanging your hopes on those things?
You answered the question at the very beginning of your post. Refusal to do basic things means he's not there yet. After this long, I'm not very comforted that he's ever going to 'get there'. Meanwhile, I've felt like my life has waaay more to offer that what I've been dealing with on a routine basis from H.
He said he asks what do you want him to do now to keep him there. Is it really a matter of what he "does" or is it more a matter of you wanting him to stop doing things that have tore down the R. Stop disrespecting you, stop punishing you, stop playing power games. There's a diff in that line of thinking.
Sheila, thank you so much for pointing out the difference!! I needed that, it is so applicable to my situation. THANK YOU. I've been sort of beating myself up for not being able to love him 'as he is', sort of taking the blame on for my 'immature' love. But after I wrote out all the reasons I love H, it became clear to me that my love is not immature and that I DO love H for who he is. So, I was having trouble figuring out why I felt so strongly about change if I suppoedly love him for who he is. I've been apprehensive about talking in depth about this to H because I didn't have this clear in my mind.
I'd be curious to see your H's list of what he loves about you.
After I wrote that email to H, I honestly felt very, very vulnerable because the thought crossed my mind several times that it's possible he wouldn't even be able to come up with such a list for me. But I can't dwell on that, right?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I have not posted for awhile because I did not want to throw any more thoughts at you especially since my thoughts are a little different (though not dramatically) from many others. I was also concerned with the speed at which things were progressing. My concern was about the stability of the situation; not that changing quickly is necessarily a bad thing.
While I have not read your thread consistently over the past 2 years, I have been there since the beginning. I understand that your decision to file was a difficult decision based upon 2 years of hard work. Granted your work and actions may not always been the best DBing possible however I think you were committed to changing yourself and the marriage. I also believe that your decision, right or wrong, to initiate the separation was made with careful consideration and not by blaming your H.
One of my concerns is the discussion of your commitment to the marriage. There are two separate issues in my mind and I am confused about the second. The first issue is how your H now believes that you were never fully committed to the marriage. This may or may not have always been the case but due to the past events that is how he feels right now. Validating that feeling is good because you are recognizing his POV. It also means you can evaluate your actions and how H sees them. The second issue I am confused about - Is it true that you have ALWAYS had one foot out the door? This is NOT about arguing with your H. I repeat - This is not a discussion to have with your H. This is about YOU and being sure of yourself and your past actions. Your actions may have definitely sent a message - intended or not - but I am curious about what you really felt. From my POV with reading your thread over the past 2 years I have felt that you were a woman committed to your marriage. The main reason I feel like this knowledge is important to you is that it could prevent you from over apologizing which I feel is something you have done recently.
I may be overly sensitive but this is an issue that I have almost conquered over the past few years - over apologizing and accepting too much blame. If you are not prone to over apologizing, this paragraph probably will not make sense. If you are prone to this issue, please look up more information because I hardly do the topic justice. Anyway...I used to say "I am sorry" so many times that it was sickening to me and probably others. I thought I was taking responsibility, accepting my faults, recognizing my imperfections, comforting others, etc. Then I realized that I was just creating even more miscommunication and creating an unhealthy dynamic for me. I was using it too often and inappropriately which was bad for me AND others. If I did not truly mean that I was sorry about doing x,y, or z, then it would happen again and my sorryness looked fake. Or I may over apologize and then feel resentful that xH "let" me apologize for something that was not really my fault. (OF course it was not his fault that I over apologized) Or if I apologized for things that were not in my control, then I also looked fake and insincere OR by accepting responsibility for something out of my control I created a sense that I had done something wrong.(i.e. apologizing for the weather, for others mistakes, for expressing a need, etc.) Also xH sometimes felt that I sometimes used apologies to effectively end arguments. I have made sure that when I use the words I am sorry I am absolutely convinced that I did something wrong and that I am not going to do it again. I clearly state "I am sorry that I..." in other words "I did something wrong and I'm accepting my culpability," Dr. Tannen, professor of linguistics at Georgetown University
I bring over apologizing up because I think it contributes to your interactions and communication with your H. Again I might be wrong, it just appears that this might be part of your dynamic - as in apologizing for buying a coat your H did not like, etc. This is within your control to change. It may upset the dynamic for awhile because your H may be used to that aspect of you. After all he felt comfortable "over punishing" you for the coat
At the same time it is critical to not swing too far the other way and become defiant and challenging. I think that many people on the boards pick up on that vibe from you and they think that you are being combative and intolerant. The aspect I think they are missing is that you were/are at the other extreme of supplicating and giving in constantly. Neither is healthy. Yet the middle road is a difficult place to stay. This to me is where your most difficult work starts. (This work is useful for you regardless of what happens with the marriage)
If you can be true to yourself over the next few months while allowing yourself to listen and validate your H's feelings, I think there is a true chance for things to work out well for both of you. Your H proved that one of your biggest doubts about him was wrong - he is able and willing to communicate. While I appreciated and was pleased with his communication, I am in the minority in that I did not see it as him making any statement about the marriage other than communicating his wants and feelings. A big step for sure but not one that really changes your marriage yet. HOWEVER that being said, I think that just the fact that he was willing to write those e-mail is all you needed to slow down and take a serious look at the possibility of getting your relationship back on track.
My opinion is that you should take your time in communication so that you do not send any mixed signals. Your H seems to look for ways to control you at least unconsciously. He wrote that you were never committed to the marriage and you wrote back apologizing for never being fully committed to the marriage. And right there he is back in control. To me, if you had said, "I am sorry that you never felt I was committed to the marriage because I always have been committed even if my actions did not show it to you. Although you may see this separation as the beginning of the end, I have thought of it as the ending of our beginning and the beginning of our future", that would have been more authentic and been more accurate communication. The difference may be slight but with your dynamic this would have been the balance between totally giving in to him versus not giving an inch. However this paragraph was based upon my presumption that you actually have been committed to the marriage even if your actions did not state them to your H. To me, it seems that if you were not really committed to your H and marriage, you would have been gone a long time ago.
A question: the whole truck financing thing - do you all have separate finances so that it would be "your" financial loss instead of both of yours? Side note: Is this more common than I have realized - keeping finances separated? If it is, why and does it really work? I was surprised to find out friends of mine (the couple that recently divorced) did this and the wife was required to fund her own hobbies with HER money (which was less) while the H could fund his hobbies with HIS and they equally contributed to their combined bills. I truly do not see how that creates a healthy togetherness. My xH and I completely shared finances from the time we both started working; about a year before we married. I made more money for the first couple of years and watched my xH spend more money on clothes and on his leased new car versus my clothes and 10 year old car. HOWEVER it was about being a team and his clothes were necessary for his career (although the car was a waste of money that was later replaced by a 10+ year old used car). We were not perfect with money but that shared responsibility for finances definitely did not hurt our marriage. I always used to tell xH that if I did become a SAHM, he better never make a comment about HIS money!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
MrsGGB and I have always completely shared finances starting when we bought our first house 9 months before we got married. It was always our money, not his and hers. I think the shared responsibility has helped more than hindered our R, although there were some rough starts at the beginning (me being a penny-pincher, saver, and careful to balance the accounts down to the penny, and her never bothering to balance her checkbook, spending on credit without thinking about how she was going to pay for it, etc). When she got her first job, she was making more than I was (I was an Air Force officer), but I had savings and no debt other than the house where she had a sizeable student loan and credit card debt. Now she's a SAHM, and I know she at times feels guilty at times spending money because "she isn't bringing any home". Still, I think keeping our finances separate would not have fostered a team feeling. I too am surprised by how common separate finances seems to be.
H and I each have our own bank account and own credit cards. However, they are both with the same credit union and we can see and transfer $$ from both accounts if we need to online. We can also see and review one another's transactions if we so choose. The mortgage and car loans are also able to be seen by both of us. H pays the bills and moves $$ from my account to do so - he always tells me when he is doing it and he NEVER questions me on my transactions, and I don't ask about his either. However, we also share a family budget and go over it together periodically. So, we are separate and together.
That's too weird - I just read a quote from LBJ to the effect that "I had more women by accident than Kennedy had on purpose". So that I suppose puts some context on Lady Bird Johnson's comments.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
You've sent a msg that you were close and comfortable enough to ML. And now you're asking about sleeping in the bedroom. It's conflicting msgs Heather.
I'm not sure what is in conflict-that I felt close enough to ML to him, but not close enough to assume I would be welcomed back into the bedroom?
He doesnt respect that you need to sleep in the bed with him as a W because you don't respect that boundary for yourself.. he might count it as BS and an excuse.
It's really HIS boundary, not mine. My decision is whether or not to respect his boundary. He does not want me in the marital bed because in his eyes, I have not been committed to our M. Sure, I can disrespect his boundary, but how does that set a good example for acceptable behavior? Don't get me wrong, I think his boundary is very poorly set up because it's really controlling MY behavior...i.e. I would see it differently if he said "You can sleep wherever you want, but I don't feel comfortable sleeping in the marital bed if you are going to be sleeping there". THAT would be a boundary. But you and I know see the distinction in that because we've had the benefit of these boards. To him, he's created a boundary. Not to respect it would be escalation and I know this because I've tried. The first time I tried to sleep in my bed, it became physical and the mental was even worse than that. Just recently while my sister was here, I slept in our bed because I didn't want her to feel guilty about taking 'my bed', which is really the guest bed. H was again, very very rude (rude doesn't quite cut it, he pretty much treated me like a dog throwing a back support thing at my back to separate us while we slept, etc) although he didn't try to physically remove me....he may have if she wouldn't have been there though, I guess I'll never know. I couldn't carry out sleeping in there against his wishes on a long-term basis because he is a night owl. He would make my life very, very hard and I would eventually cave or go off the deep end after enough torture and/or sleep deprivation. He doesn't want me in there. My choice is to respect it or not. If I want to give the M a try, I have to respect it for a limited amount of time that I have made known to him. That's the best I can do for a boundary for myself. Or leave. Do you agree or am I not getting you?
I sent a msg that I'd be in the R, but threaten to leave and any glimmer of hope (whether he was committed and respecting me or not), I'd cling to it and climb back in and then I'd start over pointing out what he needed to do and he'd start fearing abandonment again.
That's exactly what happened in my R as well. I hear you saying that through separation you and J managed to lay the groundwork for respect and that was beneficial for you guys because you didn't repeat the cycle of clinging to hope while continuing the same old patterns. I'm hoping to do the same thing through this one year timeline that I've set. I've made it clear to H that I am committed and will be in for the long haul if we can get this R to a place where we both look at each other and say 'This is good'. I felt like I had to balance the difficulty of change with a reasonable timeline while also showing an impressive time commitment. I'm hoping to accomplish the same thing you and J are achieving, just without the physical separation.
I'm not trying to hit you with a 2X4, but hoping you'll consider the messages you're sending. Respect yourself.
I feel like I am. But you're saying it doesn't appear that I am?
It's OK to say H, I love you, but I can't be close to you without XYZ. How he takes that is his responsibility.
BTDT. It got months of no sex, no emotional closeness, no affection. I lost hope and filed for D. This year warrants a new approach, the very best I have to give. I feel worse when we don't have a SL than when we do. Even if I have to sleep on the couch afterward. It's time for him to recognize the error in his ways without prodding from me. If he doesn't recognize them.....then I will have to face that.
But you can clearly communicate how it makes you feel when you're not welcome there and what that does to your heart and your commitment.. how scary it is for you that it makes you feel rejected and how impossible it is to say that you're willing to live in an environment of rejection forever.
I will try to lay this out for him. Ugh, that means I have to cut myself open again. Might as well get used to it....
I tear my heart open, I sew myself shut My weakness is I care too much My scars remind me that the past is real
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
