Same ol', same ol'

[AmyC]

Hey, thanks y'all...I've missed y'all too and still lurk occasionally but haven't really been posting cause there's nothing much new to report, as I mentioned.

I've also felt like I don't have anything new to add to anyone else's stuff that hasn't already been said.

cat, root, mama, bi43, Aud...I can't tell you how much I miss the gentle insight and encouragement you ladies have so generously shared with me in the past. Meant a lot and still means a lot, and I think of you often.

Sven, you are so right about what you said. Wish I did a better job of it all.

Kirb...dude, you will be blessed from hanging in there no matter what happens as long as you keep your wits about you.

Yes the kids are good. The little one definitely has oral herpes (cold sores) and it was most likely passed to him by my wife or I as a result of her infidelity.

In light of all that, it's hard to get excited (in every sense of the word) about my M. I have great joy, comfort, and peace in knowing that, as much as it is in my power to control, we are all under one roof, my W appears to be committed to our M and family in perhaps a way she never was before. So I'm thankful for that as well, for the kids' sake.

I guess I'm not so much dreading a passionless marriage as I am dreading looking at my W every day and primarily feeling nothing but disappointment. My W seems to have this habit of destructive, ridiculous behavior that she repeats until she marginalizes herself to such an extreme that the situation just sort of spins out of control and she is left with a mess and at the mercy of those around her. She had done this sort of thing before we were married but I was convinced she'd learned her lessons. Guess I was wrong.

I didn't make it easy on her, Lord knows. But when we made things really tough, I went to work fixing things and she just bailed. Now here we are.

I spent most of last fall hurting over the fact that she wasn't attracted to me anymore. But looking back over my posts from then, where I was often struggling with conflicting feelings and attitudes for her, I see I've been falling away from her over all this time.

Valentines Day was sort of the peak of all this. I didn't want to celebrate it at all cause, well, face it, most guys think it's a silly holiday anyway, but particularly when everyone is just going through the motions. I gave her roses anyhow, but it didn't mean anything to me. I gave them because it was the 14th just like I take out the trash on Tuesdays. That's pretty sad.

I didn't tell her any of that, of course.

No, I'm still bucking for husband and father of the year. Outwardly I try and be as pleasant and encouraging as possible.

Inwardly, and nobody knows this but the people who read this post, I have no intention of trusting her again any time soon. She seems to be very serious and sincere about her relationship with God, and for that I'm thankful because, well, that's what (in my opinion) we all need the most.

I've seen, though, that many of my difficulties in years past have been tied to the subtle conflict between her and I. I've had to get above and beyond that without intentionally alienating her or "punishing" her. In the past that made me less available for my sons and less "present" when I was with them...always too distracted, wondering about what was really going on and why my efforts to improve my M were always ignored.

Maybe it's different for others. For me, there is no magic. Remember that, Kirby. It all boils down to my own personal choice to honor my commitment or not despite the honor, or lack thereof, in those around me. In the end, I know that's what's best for me and my children, and even my W whether she accepts me or not, simply because it's what is right.

Well, my friends, sorry to pop in after all this time and pontificate so much, it's just what's on my heart these days.

I hate to make this such a defining point of my life but I think if my W ever did leave, I don't think I could ever marry or get close to anyone again unless they'd been betrayed to the extent I feel like I have, because I don't think I could trust anyone who hadn't been through this, felt the pain of it, and would do just about anything in their power to avoid it.

Anyhow, thanks for the well wishes everyone and I'll pop in again soon.

This post is one of the most heartbreaking ones I have ever read in all my time on this site.

This is not how it is supposed to be for you, toughlover.

Not sacrifice to this extent.

So it is my prayer that your willingness TO make this sacrifice will turn out to be the very reason that in the end, you won't have to.




AmyC

[Aud31]

TL,

You have made HERCULEAN efforts in this whole sitch man. I know it feels like things will be this way forever, and your feelings are important, but perhaps you can remember that you have been working your tail off to save your marriage for less than a year. Not to imply that's not a lot, but time CAN help.

You are such an inspiration, and your posts played a huge role in helping me find my peace in my sitch. I know God has great happiness in store for you. Hang on.

[cat03]

I believe this is another leg of a never ending journey, I remember how in the past you couldn't see past the "everest" you had to climb.
I pray that this is another mountain you will conquer, that you find inner peace in your M and know that all things work out to those who love Him.

[toughlover]

Thanks Amy, Aud, and cat.

Amy, I don't see how it can be any other way. I understand what you're saying but I think sometimes sacrifice and suffering is our lot because of the choices we make and the choices those around us make. I don't think there is any way to truly escape that...we can suffer lightly now or try and run away and, in the end (like Jonah), simply compound our suffering and (perhaps) delay the date we have to pay the piper.

Sometimes we have to not only choose but even embrace something that seems painful and unbearable because that's what it means to go THROUGH it instead of avoid it by pursuing something that (we think) will make us "happy". I mean, that's what my wife did and I think despite my pain over this (and, for me, it's been heavy) she suffers worst of all because she is responsible.

In the end, though, there are millions of people suffering far worse than I ever have in my 40 years of life. Right now there are soldiers and their families whose sacrifice is much greater than what I've been called to at this point, so I really have no business whining about most of it. I'm not happy about it, but all things considered I've got it pretty good.

The more time and distance we put between us and this the easier it is for me to go about my business, but it's become more and more difficult to simply accept how black my wife's heart was in all this...how can I be yoked to such a person? What if the supposed changes I see in her are simply more self-preservation on her part...the path of least resistance? She clearly has an amazing ability to be deceitful and disciplined in her deception. The thing that makes it so bad, I think, though, is the way she has, in the past, lied to herself even before the rest of us.

But I'm committed to loving her. As her husband there is no way I can be obedient to God but be lukewarm in my treatment of her. That's tough...but there is no better alternative for my sons. They need their parents together; they need to see me treat her well because that's the most signifcant (external) influence on how they treat their wives someday.

I can be nice and polite to my wife. But these days I have a hard time drumming up anything more than that. I can't take joy in our good times when we do have them because coming from her it's meaningless. I think that's why piecing is so hard....kind of like putting together a puzzle with some pieces missing...or having pieces of two different puzzles mixed together.

What else could it mean to be crucified with Christ? I mean, if HE can go through the cross because it was necessary, I can surely take care of my wife and family no matter what because that's the commitment I made, the vow I took. So when I say that I love my wife, that means something. When she tells me that what does it mean? That right now it's expedient for her to tell me that?

Sometimes the worst thing that can happen is for us to get what we think we want. Obedience to God and doing what is right protects us from the unintended consequences of lousy decisions. I've never been harmed by doing what was right no matter how difficult or unadvantageous it seemed at the time. I have, at times, rejected it or even briefly regretted it, but looking back I see much more clearly and I hope I can use that to look forward with clarity as well...at least in terms of what I do and how I do it.

God blesses obedience, and always has in my life. That is my peace and comfort.

[Just_Me]

I understand where you are coming from and I commend your commitment to the marriage. Of course you should feel betrayed and lack trust, but I can't agree that you are loving your wife. You are going through the motions that the ideal husband goes through, but can you honestly say, "I'm committed to loving her", when you won't and can't lower your guard? When you externally are a model husband, but internally you are just biding your time until your obligation is ended with your death or hers?

I hope that in time your wife proves herself to you. I hope that you are able to give fully of yourself. I promise you, if you keep holding part of you back--just enough to ensure that you don't get hurt so bad--your wife will feel it. Perhaps, in time, your inability to give fully will lead to self-fulfillment of your fear; she'll look elsewhere for what is missing in your marriage. I've been there.

[LoginName]

Hey TL,
Not to put too much pressure on you, but you're my hero. You set the standard and told me what I needed to hear. I'm glad you're not going to give up, becaus I can envision myself being in your shoes (I hope to get there, and to where you want to be).

Here's a thought. The anger and hurt that you felt, that we all have felt, has been bottled up and put away for a long time. We have battled our emotions and largely succeeded. They have to come out eventually. Now that the immediate crisis seems to be over with your W, all the pent up resentment, all the feelings of entitlement(I suffered to get us to this point, you owe me, it's your turn to do the work), are rearing their heads. What do we do with those feelings?

In one of the books I read, it talked about how we have a Taker and a Giver inside of us. We have been in Giving mode for a long time. That's part of the way we bring back our W, by giving to their Taker. But someday, our Taker is going to say what about me? I think the book said we have a third part inside of us too, and that 3rd part can control the Giver and Taker and lead us to a mature, healthy relationship (repackeaged id, ego, and super ego?).

What do you think? Is your Taker demandning to be heard now?

Another question. What is love? Maybe I should as Just_Me that question. My W says she doesn't love me anymore and she'd like to. Why can't she just do it then? Is it a choice? Maybe it's another one of those things that time takes care of. After more time (a year?) of living together and dealing with the problems, maybe love grows of it's own. I'd love to know. My W asked why I still love her. Do you still love your W? Why? Why would you want to? Do you have to be in love if you're just staying together for the kids? Maybe you could be good friends who happen to life together. I wouldn't want to settle for that. I don't think you would either.

Maybe Just_me is right and if you give yourself, in that unconditional way you spoke to me about, love can return. Maybe unconditional love is beyond humans. But that's what Grace is for, yes?

[Just_Me]

Uh oh, I shouldn't have "said" anything.

I don't know. Is love in this case a verb or noun? Is it what you do or what you have? If you "love" someone by doing things that make them feel good about themselves and make them feel loving toward you, while inside you are actually repulsed by them and seething with anger, is it love? Is it the feeling, "hey I love this person" that may not be backed up with actions or words to prove that it's true? Or is it the thing you are in, a relationship where you share your life together, giving and taking, supporting, being friends with, etc and the sometimes you don't feel that great about them and sometimes your heart yearns for them, but through it all you're committed to making it work and willing to put your heart on the line and get hurt?

[toughlover]

Well, I think mature love is a verb. Real love is a verb because that's what reality demands because nobody's perfect, as they say. Boy is that true.

At its extreme, passion and desire look more like addiction, bondage, and misery than peace or joy.

There's a reason that passion also implies suffering.

I'm not just going through the motions. I think my life demonstrates that I take responsibility for my commitment, my marriage, and my wife's well-being even when I don't "feel" like it.

I have done some destructive things over the course of our marriage because I stopped living my life by acting out of my own commitments, and started simply reacting to what she did or didn't do. That was wrong of me.

But I've always come home at night. I've always worked through problems, and I've always worked doubly hard to solve them. When we (together) mismanaged our finances early on in our marriage, I taught myself a brand new career that was more lucrative simply to fix everything myself.

I never left her high and dry with money problems, to fend for herself with the kids or the house, anything. That's not saying I'm perfect, cause I'm surely not.

There was a lot of time I felt lousy, didn't have any support from her...and now I see that she was actually working against us all, deceptively.

And yet, somehow, because I never quit, we got through everything with minimal harm to our family and children considering everything she's brought down on us.

Suffering is something we feel and I think that we're obligated to be obedient to God and do what is right even though it hurts, even though we don't get what we want in return.

I've always thought that, but I didn't always live it. I may not be much, I may not be doing much, I don't know, but I know I'm doing that now by the grace of God.

The truth is, right now, at best I feel nothing at all when it comes to her. She's been out of town for a few days and I don't even really miss her. I hope she's well, hope she makes it back safe. That's about it.

Love is a long, long road, as Tom Petty sings. I think the reason we tend to know so little about it is because more than half of all married people quit because it gets hard, and because they're not sufficiently prepared in terms of their character going into it.

But LIFE is a character issue.

I'm no longer seething with anger. Just get more and more numb where she's concerned. I can't make myself feel anything, I don't think...I can simply choose to act in a loving manner toward my wife whether I feel like it or not, and hope that someday my feelings catch up to my actions.

As I've told her before, in counseling, I AM repulsed by her and her actions. I think there would be something wrong with me if I weren't.

As a Christian, I am instructed by Paul to love my wife as Christ loved the church, and gave himself up for her, to make her holy. God loves us even in our rebellion against Him. He doesn't reject us but is hurt by our rejection. Nevertheless, real love is only possible because of free will. It IS a choice. And just as I must choose, so must my wife. It takes two, in the end, to really make things great. I am willing, and she is willing, but by her own admission she's not able to make herself feel things for me any more than I can make myself feel things for her.

Feelings change. They can be destroyed. They can also be resurrected. But maturity demands that we do what's best for us in spite of our feelings...not rewrite reality to correspond to how we want to feel at any give stage of our lives.

It ain't always fun, it doesn't make me "happy" (at least in the way we usually define it), it doesn't feel good all the time, but the peace of mind and security I have knowing I'm home, I'm with my sons and am able to help them get across the "rolling river" of adolescence without the weight of a failed marriage and family weighing them down, and, hopefully, release them on the far shore where adulthood begins with the knowledge that marriage and commitment mean something, that I've at least helped them understand what they need for that journey, and that they KNOW it can be done no matter what, has to be enough for me right now. And it's worth it.

[Just_Me]

Interesting clarification. THank you. I haven't been in your shoes. I wasn't aware from your post that your wife is still at the "trying to love you" stage. I thought what you meant by she's serious about trying is that she feels love again. That has got to be doubly hard...acting loving towards someone when you don't feel especially loving and you know they don't feel in love with you. Is that right?

Hard. I think it's great you can offer your kids this. And I think over time that trust will come and the rest will follow. And you may be right....act in a loving way and the feelings will follow. I hope someday you are no longer numb. Do you forgive her?

[toughlover]

Just_Me

Yes, I do forgive her.

I'm not so sure that the kind of depth and extent of intimacy and closeness that is possible in marriage is still possible for us, or that I want it even if it's possible, or that I'm even obligated to try for that.

That doesn't mean I don't love my wife or that I don't want to take care of her and our marriage. It doesn't mean it can't be fun, enjoyable, and satisfying.

But God doesn't command me to feel anything for my wife. He commands me to love my wife. There's a difference.

Maybe all that will change someday. Maybe not.

The truth is that I made a poor choice in a wife. I knew she had done some extreme things in the past but I believed she had learned her lessons from those experiences, had matured, and had become more responsible than that.

I clearly took a risk with her, gambled and lost.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Forgiving her means continuing to fulfill my commitment to her as my wife, accepting responsibility for our relationship. Something I've always done, albeit imperfectly, and at some times better than others.

But to me there was just too much harm done here to ever forget. And even if we wanted to or were capable of it, we have herpes sores and such that will always be a concrete reminder of how low she sunk. It's not just about having sex with someone else. It's about bailing on commitments, exposing other people, not to mention your family, to physical harm, it's about deception and scheming and manipulating the perceptions and lives of other people.

I can treat her well; I can treat her lovingly; I can refrain from mentioning or deliberately punishing her for those things; I can keep from dwelling or obsessing on those things when they do pop into my head out of nowhere; but I cannot forget. At least not yet. Maybe someday.

That's why choices are what they are. Real choices are more substantial than picking among various kinds of dish soap or automobiles.

Moral choices are accompanied by the sometimes irreversable consequences of our actions. To choose one path can, at times, mean another is forever unavailable to us, and nowhere does God promise to remove the consequences of our actions.

Life isn't fair and never was.

That stuff about "Givers" and "Takers" that Harley writes about is good stuff, and I tend to agree with him, but my marriage is no longer really about that.

When you look at the child that you have loved and protected from the day he was born and see a herpes lesion on his lip that, despite everything you did to successfully protect him this far in life from the evil that is in the world, and know that sore is there because of something horrible his own mother did out of pure selfishness and disregard for everyone including her own children...well, let's just say it throws a bucket of ice water on any warm and fuzzy feelings you might be trying to spark for your wife.

So in light of that, I don't see what good feelings for my wife will do. She's still sunk lower than anyone I've ever been close to..to my knowledge, anyway.

I take plenty of comfort that she appears to have turned over a new leaf. That is a good thing for which I am thankful.