I think this is where I belong

[Jack_Three_Beans]

JBF,

I have never liked saying "Yes this is what they are thinking." Cause the truth is I don't know, no one here knows what they are thinking.

I have noticed that my wife would act guilty, and seem to have pangs of remorse or regret. But that did not stop her from continuing an affair or being selfish.

As to the stage of replay...I thought replay in itself was a stage. Personally the one I disliked the most as it seems to be the longest and most repetative.

Check out the resources at the top of the thread for the list of stages, and remmeber these are pretty much guidelines no one situation is going to be the same for everyone.

[LoginName]

Hey JBF,
Today's post seems to mainly deal with your D. That's a good place for your focus to be. I'll have to read up on 'replay'. Is that a d thing or a MLCer thing?

I wish I could tell you one thing you could do that would make your d feel safe and the nightmares stop. Could you ask your C if she has any suggestions for your d?

The only advice I can think of is never talk bad about W in front of d, don't share your problems with her, give her all the love she needs.

So are you doing OK then? Have you read DR? I think that talks about the Last resort LRT, which I think is what you are doing, and you're doing it well. It's really going dark, really cutting contact. Not being mean or vindictive, but not rushing to help when the W has a problem or when she wants a cup of coffee. Is that your plan? Given your sitch, I think it might be a good one.

I'm not going to champion this next idea, and I'm not following this advice myself, but, my friend just went through a nasty breakup with his girlfriend of 4 years. She wanted to stay 'friends' and she left the boundaries fuzzy. He couldn't live with that. He set firm boundaries, and just a couple of days ago told her that if she wanted to break up, than it was over. There is no half way or maybe in the future.

He feels much better. He can sleep again. He is enjoying his life a bit again.

I'm glad for him. I think maybe some people have to act this way for there piece of mind. I'm sad that he's given up in a way. At least he agrees that if she knocks, he'll at least open the door a bit (figuratively speaking). He is divorced and hasn't had a relationship last more than 4 years, so maybe no one should follow his example or his advice. He is also one of the best, most compassionate, thoughtful, intellegent people I know. I think the moral of the story is that no matter how similar our sitches are, they are also different, and we are different. We have to draw and defend our own boundaries.

JBF, if you do close some doors and draw some hard boundaries, I hope it gives you peace of mind and happiness. She might be hurting and feel guilty. But you should try not to really care. Detach. Don't let her mood or your perception of her mood influence you. TL and GH told me (repeatedly!) not to try to figure W out. You can't. It only hurts to try. Don't do it. Concentrate on you and what you can control.

If you want to not have contact with her, do it because you want to, not to punish her. It won't work anyway.

My limited experience is that it is good advice to GAL, PMA, Detach, Let go, focus on what you can control, let go of what you can't, don't center your life on them and what they may or may not be thinking or feeling. Then, if they do come to you and tell you how they feel and what they are thinking, you'll be able to hear it.

I hope you had a good day, that you're feeling strong, and that your d is well. I feel us getting stronger by the day. Check out Divorce Recovery (DR, is that the right title?) and the Last last resort technic (if that's the right name of the technic). It may be for you.

You know, mabye we should talk about something other than our stiches one of these days. How do you feel about politics and religion? (might as well jump into the deep end. Or is football/soccer the really important topic?)

[justbestfriends]

Thanks for the input.
Jack the reason I thought that replay might have sub stages is that I read someone talk about 'deep replay' on another thread.

LiN, cheers.

D still had nightmares last night, though not quite so bad. They are all about ME leaving her. I am going to talk to my C about them on Friday, thanks for the suggestion. At the weekend W and I agreed that she wouldn't see D while she was so unsettled as seeing W seems to make her worse, not better. W is obviously finding that difficult and texted me last night to say that she thought it would be best for D to see her. I was quite angry so haven't texted back. She isn't here to see D's problems at night and I think she is in no position to say what's best for her at the moment. She opted out. It is because she's missing her herself, understandably, but I think she's thinking about her own needs and not D's. I haven't got back to her because I don't want contact when I feel angry, but really, she's the one who couldn't see her on Sunday morning because she was out all night on Saturday. She wants to see her on her terms. I genuinely have D's best interests at heart and whilst I can't be certain it's the right decision, at the moment the contact seems to make D more unsettled. I'd welcome comments from any other parents on that one.

W left a VM yesterday about the sale of the house. My mum said she sounded weird, strained and depressed on it. I couldn't see(hear?) it myself but my mum has suffered from depression for years and says she just recognises the signs.

LiN I have read DR and it is a version of LRT that I'm following. I am doing that purely to protect myself at the moment as I know that more regular and friend type contact throws me still. I don't mean to punish her, I still love her in spite of everything.

I am getting stronger week by week. I'm amazed at how resilient we human beings really are. Hope you're having a good day.

Politics: left of centre. Religion: ex Salvation Army agnostic. Football: Liverpool. Music: almost anything. And you?

[justbestfriends]

Need to vent a bit. A couple of messages today via text re:W seeing D, went as follows

Me:Hi. D's welfare is my no.1 priority, obviously. Nightmares continue but have improved from Thursday. Her fear is that I'm leaving too and that's what the nightmares are about. They were worst last Thursday and Sunday after she saw you. Could be a coincidence but I don't believe so. I'll let you know if things improve.

W:Hi. I know you're a brilliant parent and you are only thinking of D. I am too. Just thought that if she saw me it would make her feel less abandoned in the medium/long term, even though it's hard at the moment to get her head around it. It's your call I just can't see how not seeing me helps reassure her I've not left her life altogether. Tell D I love her and can't wait til see her. Hope you are ok'

I am annoyed for a variety of reasons but would welcome some feedback if there's anyone out there.
1) I see D every day and night and am in a much better position to decide what's best for her
2) I feel like W's trying to make me feel guilty because I'm not letting her have her way
3) I think she's thinking of herself, not D.If she was thinking of D she would take my word for it more and wait until D was more settled. The evidence is that she's worse when she's seen her. Why would she want to put her through that?
4)It felt like she hadn't read my text as she said exactly the same things she had said last night
5)She couldn't see D on Sunday morning because it interfered with her partying on Saturday so she wants to see D when it's convenient for her.
Am I being overly sensitive? I haven't replied to her last message because I don't see the point.

[LoginName]

JBF,
Where your d is concerned, I can understand any anger. What your W did and is doing to your d is awful.

I think it's a good idea not to text her until some or all of the anger passes. Anger is not conducive to reason.

I think you are right on all of your points, except... it doesn't do any good to try to determine her motives. Is she trying to make you feel guilty? Maybe, maybe not. I have a hunch she is so caught up in her own life/nightmare/fantasy MLC that she really doesn't have much room to consider what you are thinking or feeling. I've been told that at this stage it is all about them; they are very self-centered. I think it's helpful to remember that and not try to guess their motives, or even their thoughts. Just go by actions and the end result - which in this case is the health of your d.

My kids are older, 10 and 15, so they act differently. My d10 did get more clingy and loving, and when I would tell her that I'm not leaving, ever, she would act visibly relieved. She did have one or two dreams, but she is very stoic overall - like her brother and parents. That was a lot of information to just tell you that I don't know what would be best for your d; seeing W or not. I am interested in what the C will say. If the C says, or someone here makes a good argument, that W should see D, can you handle it?

Maybe this from my sitch will shed some light. My W feels so incredibly guilty for leaving the kids that she gets angry at me for it. She, although a very perceptive and intelligent woman, has convinced herself that in a way she never left the kids. She left me, she never left them. She knew I'd take good care of them, so it wasn't like she abandoned them. She gave me 3 days warning before she left, so she didn't just take off out of the blue, in her mind. If I wanted to anger her, all I'd have to do is hint that she left the kids. Maybe your W is really suffering from this guilt too.

At the time my W was gone, I didn't believe she felt so bad. I tried hard not to guess what she was thinking at all, although it sure seemed she didn't care. (Oh my, I feel my anger rising now! I'll have to examine that later). The kids called her as often as she called them. That's the only contact she had with them. She'd ask them how their day was and that was about it. She wouldn't talk to me, or ask me about the kids. Meanwhile, she was having fun with the OM. - OK, enough of my sitch and anger, back to you.

My point is, for what it's worth, that your W is probably feeling awful, and will feel much worse later when she comes out of her fantasy world and sees what she's done. Then she might go into denial about the whole thing. It actually is your fault anyway (she might think).

And then back to the real issue - what is best for your daughter. There are some websites that talk about how to co-parent, they might be useful. From the books I've read and the websites, I think that overall the better the parents can get along and not fight or show anger in front of the kids the better for the kids. At your stage, it might be too early, but I'm guessing that eventually, you may need to be flexible for your d's sake; even to the point of changing your schedule to accommodate your W's party habits. I'm guessing that it's really important for you d to see her mom, even if it is unfair to you, and to her.

Cheers, JBF

[LoginName]

It’s very hard, but I really recommend that you don’t try to think about what your W is feeling or thinking – wondering if she is sad, depressed, or strained. Let go. Wait for her to tell you what she is feeling or felt, if she ever does. You might be surprised by what she says. I’ve been surprised by what my W has told me recently. If she’s sad, it means nothing. She could be sad because the pub ran out of her favorite beer (although my guess is she’s a lime and lager type, and doesn’t appreciate the good stuff, a nice, room temperature, flat, bitter, yum). She might be sad that she has to even see a text from you. She might be sad because she left. You can’t know. It doesn’t matter. And don’t let her feelings affect yours. If she is sad, does it make you feel better? Try not to. Don’t feel sad because of her feelings either. Detach. Feel what you feel.

Hard to do, so hard. I think it’s worth it for your own sanity and to improve the sitch. As far as I can follow my own advice, it helps me.

Good luck with the LRT. I’ve been using a modified version of it myself, and felt comfortable with it. Now that my W and I are talking more, I’m a little uncomfortable. I keep telling myself everything I’m telling you – detach, don’t have expectations.

We are way too resilient, we are. It’s almost part of the cruel joke, isn’t it? (my pessimistic, dark soul coming out). Life goes on, even as we are left wondering how it possibly could. But, I guess there is strength in that too. We survive. They, nor the sitch, can beat us. We can’t be beat. We can and will and are overcoming this as well. I won’t get too much more philosophical.

Me? Since I brought it up, and you laid yours out, I guess I have to share, at the risk of alienating or offending others. I hope y’all ( I lived in the south for a while) will be open minded.

Politics: left of center – cross between a leftists and a libertarian (do you have those over there?). Religion; agnostic works. I’ve recently discovered Unitarianism and think I can belong to that church. (what sect is the Salvation Army anyway?). Football; Real Club Deportivo de La Coruna (and Denver Broncos for American football). (I don’t really know much of anything about soccer. I lived in Spain, and started to follow the home team). Music; anything – bluegrass, classical, jazz, alternative, rock, western – accept things that I find to ‘normal’ or to ‘pop’.

Ta - and good luck. My best for your daughter.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Just,

Listen to Login, he has some excellent advice. Try not to figure out motives. Suffice to say all of them are going to be 'me me me' based ok? Unless life threatening even your D is secondary right now. Sorry it sucks you can have my tee shirt.

[justbestfriends]

Thanks guys.

I am trying not to second guess what she's thinking or her motives but I do stray! For example last night I realised that the reason she now seems so keen to see D is because D makes her feel better. It is definitely about her selfish needs.

As the sane parent, if I even had the slightest doubt that seeing me upset or disturbed my D, I would back off until she settled down. I would not want to put a child that I love unconditionally through pain. Anyway, whatever, I'll try even harder to stop now.

I am feeling quite upbeat this morning. The sun is shining, D slept everso slightly better (nightmare about purple monsters which seemed far healthier!) and lots of plans already for the weekend.

There is also the possibility of a new job on the horizon but it's in another part of the country (I know we're tiny compared to the US so that won't mean that much to you guys!) It would be about 2/3 hours drive away. Not sure I should pursue that at the moment but it could be a great opportunity which might not come up again. It would put me much nearer to my sister to whom I've become very close through this trauma and my mum would relocate too.

I don't think currently W would fight to keep D because she knows she couldn't care for her, so D would come with me (she absolutely adores my sister who lives by the seaside). So some decisions to be made. Just not sure if it's too soon.

PS LiN, Salvation Army isn't a sect but a denomination with fairly standard Protestant beliefs and an emphasis on doing social good e.g. soup runs for the homeless. Lots of music too. Generally nice people, good values. I think you and I would definitely get along.

[LoginName]

Cheers (do y'all use that as a greeting as well as a good bye?)

JBF, what if seeing your W was the best thing for your D, even it it caused some nightmares? It's hard to know. I hope your C gives you a good answer. When I ask mine about my kids, it seems to come down to if there are no real problems, don't do anything. Maybe I need a better C

A new job sounds great. A new anything sounds pretty good. I feel kind of cheated because I started a new job just before my W left. I've had a hard time giving this new job the attention it deserves. This could be the right job for me, and I hope I don't mess it up. Good luck to you. I hope that if it is the job you want that you get it.

Are the laws in the UK on divorce and custody a lot different than in the US? Here, and it varies by state, I have good grounds to keep the kids since my wife 'abandoned' us. Your W has left too, so that might give you a stronger legal position. And then again, you may never have to find out.

I've always admired the Salvation Army without knowing anything about them. Living in the land of the fundamentalist right wing Christian (and I've known some great people who fit in that category - but I think we have a lot of the judgmental, closed minded (unchristian?) type in the US too) I thought they might lean in that direction. I'm sure I used the wrong word when I said sect. Denomination is better. I think I've been told that the Army is an offshoot of the Methodist? True? Or are they separate all together?

I forgot to say that I even like some Hip Hop (Rap is a little harder for me to appreciate).

Today will be a good day.

Quick story. I was in London during that freakish heat wave. I brought the whole family over. The flat had no air conditioning, of course. The kids still think of England as a hot, humid place. The day the family flew home - I stayed on a few more days for work - the heat wave broke and the weather was brilliant. Oddly enough, the other time I was in London was during one of the coldest winters in history. When my W left London and I stayed on a few days for work, the weather changed and was glorious. Think London has something against my W? Were the gods trying to tell me something?

[justbestfriends]

Cheers (do y'all use that as a greeting as well as a good bye?)

Tends to be a goodbye but can mean thanks and of course said with a glass in hand, too.

JBF, what if seeing your W was the best thing for your D, even it it caused some nightmares? It's hard to know.

It is hard to know and unfortunately my W did push a few buttons with her text yesterday on this one and she did get me questioning. I have discussed it at length with my mum who sees D every day and who also feels it's too unsettling for D this week. I'm thinking that if D continues to settle over the next couple of nights, I might suggest that she sees her on Sunday.

Tomorrow may be a tough day for me as the house goes on the market. I'm obviously going to try not to let it, but seeing the board up outside will hurt, I think.

Re:custody. I do think we could come to some agreement on this if the need arises. W won't want custody, I don't think, as it would interfere with her new social life too much. I guess that could change over time, however.

LiN, The Salvation Army grew out of the Methodists I believe. I mothballed my uniform 27 years ago but I guess the fundamental values have stuck. Your musical tastes sound as eclectic as mine.

Just as it's not worth trying to fathom out what our spouses are thinking it's really not worth trying to make sense of the British weather.