Life of Job

[81388*]

I am not sure I want her to leave,but given the current situation, I am certain I don't want her to stay.

I can see the point about if they are in the house, they are better able to see the changes in you, but if those are continually countered by the ongoing lack of respect then it is more like 1 step forward and 3 steps back.

[whatisis]

8, obviously if the idea of the PA is too much to bear, then living with her and trying to DB is not gonna work. I think what does happen is that we get all caught up in the physical aspect of the A and it's hard to get past. I know, in my case, if the A was with another guy and the physical aspect was in my face, I don't know how patient I'd be either. Just be sure that this stand is the one you want to take and that now is the time you want to take it.
Oh, I just wanted to mention that all this macho crap about "respect" is often nothing more than emotional upchucking! There are many ways to gain respect, one is to boot her ass to the curb and another is to look at the impact of doing so on your children and continuing to fight for your M, with your W at home. To take the pain and keep plugging away I think also demands respect, it doesn't mean weakness. This said, I have no problem with someone choosing to set limits but please don't believe the only way to maintain respect is by booting her. This belief can really cut down on the options you can consider.

[whatisis]

8, I want to share something Grasshopper posted a while back. Just food for thought. It's long but worth the read whether you agree with GH or not:

"So many times on these threads we see poeple decrying what their spouses did to them and how they just can't seem to get past it, to forgive them their trespasses. They keep saying "But she broke her vows. She f--cked another man" as if that somehow gives them exclusive dominion over the choice to leave the marriage. It's almost like the WAS flipped a switch, starting an inevitable process that ends in divorce, or at least that's how many LBS's seem to portray their feelings about the sitch. They feel that things are irreparable when in fact they are not.

The simple, inescapable fact is that for most, and I stress MOST WAS's, the end of the marriage is at least as justified (and thus the affair) or MORE justified due to the months/ years of "broken" vows THEY feel WE broke. Remember, the one about sleeping with another man/woman is not the only vow exchanged although many of us would like to think it is, or at least the most important of them. Many LBS's think it is the most important but when you stack two or three of them together, say loving, honoring, cherishing, in good times and bad, etc. then that one about forsaking all others seems to be out-gunned from the perspective of the WAS. All of a sudden, for the WAS, forsaking doesn't seem so bad when you feel unloved, un-cherished and not honored in the least, let alone respected....

Something has been taken away in our marriages. We were hurt beyond our ability to express but we CANNOT forget that our spouses were hurt too, probably long before we were and whether we agree or not, they fully believe our transgressions of the pact of marriage, in the form of broken vows, gives them as much right to vacate the marrage as we think their infidelity does us.

We are not right any more than they are, nor are we necessarily in more pain than they are. We are simply on the receiving end of the broken vow with the highest visibility and worst PR spin.

Bottom line is that you wither want to save your marrage or not. You can't control whether your spouse does or not. Obviously they cheated on you, or at least had an EA at this point so they are leaning the other way. You either want to nudge them back your way or the other, it's your choice but please realize that at some point, it IS your choice to make. You HAVE to decide one way or the other because to make no decision, to commit to doing nothing is the worst affront to yourself you can make.

Lastly, and maybe most offensivly, that part about them sleeping with another women/man being the deal breaker...sorry to be so rude/crude/heartless but I have never seen so many virgin brides/husbands in my life than those gathered here. Come on people, they slept with people before you and as long as they come back clean there really is no difference other than they promised they wouldn't do that after they married you...what did YOU promise them?

I can't say in the end if your efforts will be successful if you do all this DB stuff but what I can say is that if you don't decide you want to save your marriage, and commit to doing whatever you can to achieve that goal, you won't be successful in doing so.

Just remember this last thing; by choosing to save your marriage, you are really choosing to save yourself first"

[81388*]

Whatis;
Thank you, insightful as always.

What if the underlying problem is a lack of respect. Your supposition is that by tolerating the affair for the sake of my "family", I am garnering some respect. I can see from my wife's perspective, this is not the case.

To answer GH's questions directly, my wife is the only woman I have ever been intimate with. I promised to respect her, I have. I promised to be faithful to her, I have. I promised to love her, I have. I promised to respect her, I have. I promised to honor her, and I have. Have I been perfect? H#ll no.

She is in a pit of self pity and despair, she has decided that the answer to all of her problems is a new R. She has decided that her happiness is more important then that of her family. She has decided that this ultimate act of disrespect is justified.

If she does not respect me, she will not return. It is not just macho, it is reality.

[whatisis]

8, it's me again! I'm beginning to feel like a stalker
I've been thinking about your belief that by not booting your W you are thereby condoning the A. How so? Does she believe right now that you are OK with it? Why would she think that? My W knows damn well I don't condone it nor will I do anything to aid it. I don't change my schedule to fit in with her A, she can manage that around mine! I've been very clear that I think what she is doing is immoral...big deal! So is booting her going to somehow convey anything more? Would saying "I'm not leaving my family because of your actions, go ahead and leave if you want to" tell her you don't condone it? What about using the Last Resort Technique...would that still be condoning the A? I guess I just want to make sure you are moving beyond the testosterone that sometimes fuels our male thinking, when it shouldn't! Sure, all the guys will say "kick her to the curb, demand respect" but what I've learned is what the guys say is often the WRONG thing to do, in your shoes they'd do just what you're doing.
Now I'll leave you alone, I swear!!!!

[81388*]

Whatis;
please don't feel like you have to leave me alone, I value your input and appreciate your insightful words, you stalker you.

Now for the rest of the story, for 26 years, my wife's response to stress/crisis in our relationship has been to find someone new. It happend several times when we were dating, and has happened several times since.

They have never been affairs, so to speak, but a way out. I have always been a DBer, even before I knew what that was. My response has always been "that is your choice to make". For most of my life I have tried to instill in her a sence of self and to build her self-esteem by helping her to accomplish things that she didn't think she could.

Over the last 10 years, I have taken a back seat to her life. I have done everything to help her be "the best she can be" in the testosterone infused world in which she lives. With only one exception, the people she has been attracted to are dominant alpha males.

She has always withdrawn from the role of wife and mother. Unfortunately my response has been to pick up the slack, which has allowed her to withdraw even further.

In an attempt to help her accomplish her goals, I have become an emasculated husband, and I don't think the current role that she has given me is helping my cause.

[whatisis]

8, this is where you and I have something definately in common. I, too, have always worked my butt off to support my W's career and educational goals. I picked up the slack in a lot of areas in our life. Did I help her become so self centred by doing so? Who knows but I felt I was respecting her, honouring her etc etc. So if I was doing such a magnificent job why did she feel she had to turn elsewhere for real connection? You may want to ask that of yourself. BUT the real question is "where do you want to be in the future and how are you going to get there" If you believe that the macho, out the door thing IS part of the answer, then go for it! No one else can tell you what the solution is to your situation, you ARE the expert on that. Only you know what has worked in the past and what might work again. If you believe that your stance as her houseboy has put you where you are, then definately look at changing that. Watch for things that seem to make a difference and repeat them. If something isn't working then change it. Do something different. It's all part of the DB game. Can you do this better with her elsewhere? That is the other question.

[81388*]

Whatis;
I mean this with all respect but, how has it worked for you?

I know and respect the fact that you have been at this WAY longer then me, and you have been there and done that, but by your own admition, it ain't going so good.

I in no way mean to imply that you should have or could have done things differently, only bring up the point that it has not got you where you want to be.

I agree with you that each of us is the expert on our own situation, and I think all to often we come here looking for someone else to "tell" us what we should do.

The reality for me is that my wife has discounted my feelings down to zero. Does she think I have done that to her? Most likely. Does that mean I have? NO.

As I understand it, the heart of DB is twofold, GAL which strengthens us and shows us that we can survive w/out her, and gives her an alternative to the "old" us, and LRT, 180,etc. which alters the "same old" dynamics of our failed relationships.

I don't know if you agree, but to me the basic premise of an affair is a lack of respect for your partner, and a sense of entitlement. Because of this, I deserve that.

DB may, and in my case certainly has, slowed my wife from a runaway to a walk away wife, but does nothing to adress the underlying lack of respect(not in a macho, submission way, but in a general sense), and sense of intitlement.

She feels the way she feels for many "valid" reasons, but her response is NOT valid, and at this point there have been no reprocussions.

I still think it is time to introduce some negative reinforcements.

[Heywyre]

Mcojh - yes, I am almost positive he has not seen OW for about 2 months because she lives so far away and I think I would be able to figure it out (he used to go see her on his day off but he has been doing others things, including coming to see me at lunchtime) that confirms he isn't going there - but I have my suspicions that he is still in contact with her, although he says he hasn't talked to her either. All I can do is try and believe him. The trust rebuilding is so, so hard being it is the second time he has done this. I never thought I would get through the first time but this is so much harder, I don't know if I have the strength

[whatisis]

Fair enough, 8! It is certainly important to look at the experiences of others and allow them to help you in your decision making. My apparent failure using my approach may be due to my application of the theory, personal defecits etc. Who knows! Oh, and please don't think I'm accusing you of saying any of those things in re to my sitch! BUT I do know that through my efforts to do what I have done (or tried to do) I am in a better place if my M ends. I just want you to be in that place too, it that comes to be. I know I don't want to sit back and think, if only I had tried this first! Be as sure as you can be before you decide to show her the door. I know because of the prep work I've done through GAL etc., I will survive and do well. I wish the same for you. Take care.