Ok BF, two questions: have you gone through this BS with a spouse or are you going throught it now? Are you married to a woman that is comparable to my wife (have you been married to or are you now married to one of these aggressive, power hungry, disrespectful women)?
Brother you hit the respect issue right on the head. Man when my wife turned into a bit*h to get along with (read my earlier posts about her attitude), I bailed out of the relationship. I see now that that was a HUGE mistake. I should have stood my ground and beat her down. Yeah, that's right, I should have been more of a basta*d. You know, I have told this woman before that if she were a man and treated me the way that she has on occassion, she'd have one of two options, beat my a** or have hers beaten. The above statements are about MY failure.
This is my opinion about HER failure. As my self-esteem has returned somewhat I am beginning to see my wife and our relationship in a completely new light. My wife knows (knew, I'm not sure about this anymore) that I'd never leave her. My wife knows that I'd never be abusive to her. My wife knows that I'd always be there for her in any situation that she got into, she had a safety net. My wife knows that I'd never cheat on her. She took advantage of my commitment, trust, loyalty, etc. and she did whatever she wanted to do. Basically, she knew there'd be no dire consequences for her actions, so why worry about stomping me. I have a very, very, very real problem with anyone with this type of attitude. You don't take something that's good and sincere in a world full of sh*t and corrupt it for power. If there's one thing in all of this that would make me turn my back on her and file papers, it's her lack of maturity and integrity regarding our relationship. This is not my problem; this is her problem.
Believe me brother, she is well aware of my feelings regarding this respect issue. She has been told by me in no uncertain terms that we will NOT go back to the relationship that we've had for the last several years. Those days are over, period. She wants to be a bit*h, I have no problem with that, but she'll be a bit*h with with a new man. In an earlier post I said that I had looked inside of myself and was very disappointed with what I found, this is the ugliness that I found, me not having enough respect for myself to put her in her place when this power struggle began. Instead, I became a doormat.
As David Deida says in 'The way of the superior man' if she can provide her own masculine energy, what does she need you for? No disrespect to you BF, but this sounds to me like some new age psyco babble BS. If that's all that one person is to another, then the person with those feelings should take a good long look at their life and take a look at their priorities. What a sad a** way to go through life and have relationships with people. That's like accusing an abused child of wanting to be abused or causing the abuse--that's just BS from the get go.
My friend, I don't agree with your view of earning respect. You give another person respect until they do something to warrant no longer being respected. Being a peace maker and keeping peace in your house, marriage, the world, etc. is not a reason to disrespect someone. If anything, those people should be admired. I understand what you're saying, but my spouse has had no reason to disrespect me other than HER own screwed up way of viewing me in our relationship. I have always kept my word with this crazy a** woman. If I have not kept my word with anyone in this marriage, it's been not keeping my word with myself.
BF you've pi**ed me off. Not by what you've said or suggested (I appreciate your help, honesty, and sincerity here), but you've made me look again at this ugliness that's poisoned me for years.
Where is the board that you mentioned that these "career" women post on? I too would like to go there and read some of the posts to see if I can glean any insight(s) into my current situation.
Ok - from your last post I admit to being mystified as to why you would have any hope or desire to preserve your marriage other than for you child(ren??). Does your W have any redeeming qualities at all? Maybe I was mistaken in my other post to you and what you really need to do is write the marriage off and go about forming a separate life.
I do certainly agree that you should not be expected to be a doormat for her or to be direspected by her. Read hairdog's thread if you want to know if anyone has a experience with a woman who is immasculating and disrespectful. Don't tolerate it. Hairdog has come a long way in his interactions with his W and yet seems to have many more positive associations with her than you seem to have with your W.
Please be careful you two of castigating career women. Many of the women on this board are very family and marriage committed and have very responsible and successful careers. Many of us are "the boss" and are pretty good at it. Yet, we don't extend that to the home front. HP and I have each had a SAHM career and a business career. Remember, women are individuals just as men are.
Hi karen Please be careful you two of castigating career women
Please point out to me in my post where I did this, so I can see how my words are coming across. I dont see it. IRL, I voulunteer with a program that teaches women too handle their finances. Their is a huge discrepancy in the numbers of single women compared to single men who wind up in bankruptcy. I lurk at the other BB to see what how the other women are doing it. Invariably the convos turn to R's. Almost every single one of them is ok or has accepted they make the money. Most of them wish their H's would step up in the R though.
Its not about money, its about how you deal with the R. If she was a golddigger she wouldnt be there.
Abyss this sentence is corrected to read.. Your W has so much masculine energy in her business and social life you slipped into assuming she wanted that position in your M.
Abyss, Its not your W's fault that you didnt set boundaries the past few years. Your newly acquired Testosterone is likely having an effect on your emotions. Im curious what your levels were prior, and what they are now. Your welcome to vent and be pissed off here, but get a grip on your anger IRL your W can feel it. Work on your self esteem, and work on the issues that are stressing you out and your anger will diminish. You cant force your wife to stay, but you can require to be treated decently.
The woman who I call x, has a master in Political Science and has a director position with the government, and works closely with various elected officials. I wouldnt call her technique aggressive, but she is in her position because of her ability to get what she wants. Is that the resume you were looking for?
My friend, I don't agree with your view of earning respect. Thats your choice. You give another person respect until they do something to warrant no longer being respected. Its good to not be DIS-respectful, but respect is an emotion. Its earned, not given. Being a peace maker and keeping peace in your house, marriage, the world, etc. is not a reason to disrespect someone. If anything, those people should be admired. You can operate with shoulds, or you can accept what is, and start working on your M I understand what you're saying, but my spouse has had no reason to disrespect me other than HER own screwed up way of viewing me in our relationship. In this comment, your disrespecting her for seeing things differantly then you. Your not accepting her. Isnt that what you want from her? I have always kept my word with this crazy a** woman. If she were to post here, Im sure it would soon become apparent that this is not true. If I have not kept my word with anyone in this marriage, it's been not keeping my word with myself.
Good. I like that last one. Time to start being true to yourself, and honest with her, about what you want, WITHOUT anger or cruelty. I know how the anger slips out, its mostly why Im D. If you dont want a D, and more importantly want to respect yourself, get a grip on it.
Id like to know if your T levels are over 600, or if it has increased more then 200 points. Do some research, take care of your health. As for being pissed at me, good. Im sure Ill do it alot more. Quit stamping your foot and saying should, and get cracking.
You ask some tough questions, questions that I have asked myself many times over for the past several years.
My wife in her current state has no redeeming qualities. I am not attracted to her as she is today (when I say today I'm talking about over the years when she basically began dominating the marriage). As I move away from the weak person that I had became, and the me that I used to be emerges, I question my entire motivation for attempting a reconsiliation. My hope is that she'll see the changes that I'm making and it'll motivater her to change.
I am not sure that my wife has the maturity, strength, or character to bring about change in herself. It takes an adult who's comfortable with his/her self, recognizes the fact that they are not perfect, have never been perfect, will never be perfect, and that they can and will make mistakes--they have to allow themselves to make mistakes, to recognize their faults, to accept who they are and who they want to become. They have to be free within themselves to bring about change. The very first thing that one has to do to learn something is to admit that they don't know. The very first thing that has to be done to work on a problem is to recognize that there is a problem. No addict has ever had their addiction cured by someone else, the cure came from within them. I am no longer sure that my wife has this capability; she only speaks in definites and she lives in the past. As I stated earlier, I will be a better person on the other side of this regardless of what happens with my marriage. I also know that I will not go back to what we've had over the last several years which means that we're both going to have to change.
Yes, my son does play into my decision making process. It will be a cold a** day in hell before my child doesn't live under my roof 24/7. She wants out for HER happiness and wants a divorce for HER reasons, no problem, hit the door, but I'll be damned if my son is going. She wasn't sure about herself and her commitment in our marriage she shouldn't have had a child with me. What makes her desires or gripes any more better or worthy than mine? Not a damned thing. No offense to anyone out there that's a step dad or mom as I know many and several of my neices and nephews have filled these roles, and they are all fine people, but I don't believe that another man (should my wife and I divorce and she were to remarry) needs or should be allowed to spend as much time (or many times, more time once the courts make a decision)with my son as I'm allowed. No other man can teach my son what I know and think is important in life.
This legal "no fault" divorce process is a complete disaster in my opinion. I know that I'll here the smarta**es say that someone in my wife's position should be allowed to divorce (the same people never take into account that I too have been in this position for seven years and I'd still like to work on my marriage). This business about getting a divorce because you're unhappy or you're no longer in love, blah, blah, blah is BS. Boo fking hoo. I hate that anyone is not happy in their marriage or that anyone is no longer "in love" with their spouse, but you know what--grow up, be an adult and stop thinking of only yourself. You're not happy then that is you responsibility.
My mother and father raised four boys in a stable and loving home and they had been married sixty-five years when my father passed. I would be a fool and anyone else would be also to think that in sixty-five years of marriage my mother and/or father never once thought about throwing in the towel for many reasons. It would also be foolish to believe that my mother and father were completely "in love" with one another every day, week, year of those sixty-five years of marriage. I am sure that many conversations and disagreements went on in that sixty-five year span that I nor my three brothers will ever know about or that we ever suspected while living under their roof. They made a choice. They weren't quitters. Today, we're soft; we like instant gratification; we're bombarded daily with Me Me Me advertising; we've bought into, including myself, this pop culture disposable society.
Anyone that does not recognize this "no fault" divorce business as an industry is fooling themselves. I'm a marketing/business analyst, and when my wife started this divorce issue I began looking at the business of divorce. I applied the same skills and research methods to the divorce business that I'd use to examine a business or verify the success or failure of a marketing venture. Let me tell you, divorce is a very lucritive and profitable business for some people and business is damn good. Business gets better yearly and has grown at a very, very good clip. If I could find a publically traded company growing at this rate, with judicially guaranteed profits and backing (as the divorce system enjoys) I'd put a few thousand into it and retire very comfortably in 5-10 years.
As you can see Karen, I'm not at all for divorcing, possibly loseing my son (as in not possibly having him in my house all the time), and breaking my family apart over my wife's "feelings". I have feelings too, and hers aren't any more important or valueable than mine are.
So whats the ROI of the divorce campaign by your wife?
I understand where you're at and you're pissed, its not right and she acting like a child, I've been there got the t-shirt. I had the exact same kinds of feelings when my marriage was falling apart.
Disposable society, throwing relatonships away, looking for instant gratification, a society convincing you that you never have to really grow up, the dreamn of having it all, disney romance....
I hear alot of really solid things in what you're saying that you don't want to divorce, that she is welcome to leave if she wants, and that no matter what on the other end of this you will be a "better" man.
I know that you don't want to live in the past but you're going to have to address the sex issue at some point if you are going to reconcile with your wife.
I have one question it's my understanding that you went to marriage counceling seperately. If so why did you go seperately?
Still beating your chest, I see? Hmmm… boy, you sound really scary, uuooohh, shudder, quake… whatever! No wonder your wife ignores you and wants out. You sound like a bully. How tough will you be when she has the law on her side? The fact of the matter is that she will probably have a slam dunk case against you for child custody. You will get visitation rights and some say over guardianship issues. Even though she earns more than you, you will still have to pay some level of child support. It doesn’t sound good does it? Cold day in hell or not, you better ask yourself how tough you can really be when the constable shows up at your door to enforce the court order. Whether its fair or not, whether it sucks or not, whether it screws the dads or not, that’s the way it is, and not even almighty you can change it. So if you don’t like the reality of all this, maybe you better get a grip and start using your brain, rather than your brawn.
My wife in her current state has no redeeming qualities.
Fair enough. I felt like that toward my wife too. However if you would take the time to educate yourself a little, you will find that your statement is based on all emotion, both yours and hers. You don’t care about her, she doesn’t care about you. You get angry, she wants to escape. You don’t like her solution and I pretty sure she doesn’t like yours.
So what are you going to do, tough guy? Yell a little louder, intimidate a little more, become a bigger bully? That would be a smart move, especially since she has a lawyer now. That would probably eliminate all hopes of having any visitation rights with your kids. You are between a rock and a hard place and the laws a designed to control people like you. There is only one way out and you know it. Become a different person.
You seem to think you are a smart person. Are you? You want your kids, right? You want to get as much from the divorce as you can right? You want some VENGEANCE, right? How are you going to do that? You still have to convince the court that your story warrants you being awarded what you want. Are you going to yell and intimidate the judge? You did say you are smart. Don’t you think showing yourself as a rationale, compassionate, loving, caring, devoted father would present the best case for you? Don’t you think the judge has been around the block a few times and has seen plenty of angry fathers? Don’t you think he will be looking for the same signs in you, and stories about you? You’re smart, right?
Why would you want her to change and become an adult, why would you want her to develop “the maturity, strength, or character to bring about change in herself?” that would only help her case. If she is childish, immature, uncaring, then let her be. It will play into your case later. Just worry about changing you. Now that’s smart, don’t you think? You will have the upper hand and ragain the power, especially in the eyes of the court. Let her show herself as the cold, angry, selfish woman trying to breakup the family.
It takes an adult who's comfortable with his/her self, recognizes the fact that they are not perfect, have never been perfect, will never be perfect, and that they can and will make mistakes--they have to allow themselves to make mistakes, to recognize their faults, to accept who they are and who they want to become.
Agreed. Can YOU do it? Remember, think smart. Don’t go stupid on me now.
As I stated earlier, I will be a better person on the other side of this regardless of what happens with my marriage.
Not if you don’t change. You will be a father without a family and limited visitation rights. If you think that is better, then think again.
I also know that I will not go back to what we've had over the last several years which means that we're both going to have to change.
Nope, just you have to change.
…but I don't believe that another man (should my wife and I divorce and she were to remarry) needs or should be allowed to spend as much time (or many times, more time once the courts make a decision)with my son as I'm allowed. No other man can teach my son what I know and think is important in life.
It doesn’t matter what you believe. Once you divorce, she can allow any man she wants into her life and your son’s life too. If she allows, that man will teach your son whatever he likes, whether it agrees with your views or not. And there’s not a damn thing you can do about it! That wouldn’t be smart, don’t you think?
This legal "no fault" divorce process is a complete disaster in my opinion.….
Ok, Ok, did you get it out of your system? Do you feel better now? Stop whining and complaining and start to do something.
As you can see Karen, I'm not at all for divorcing, possibly loseing my son (as in not possibly having him in my house all the time), and breaking my family apart over my wife's "feelings".
So how important is this to you? What price are you willing to pay for it? I bet you would pay $20,000 to change your wife, if it could be done. But I bet you wouldn’t pay $10 to change yourself. Did you get anything out of individual counseling at all, or were you just trying to convince the counselor that you are right and your wife is wrong. Maybe you couldn’t get than stupid headshrinker to see things your way so you dumped him/her and came to this board to seek justification. It doesn’t look like that was too smart of a move either.
I have feelings too, and hers aren't any more important or valueable than mine are.
That is the only true and smart thing you have said so far.
The sex thing has been addressed. When all of this started my wife told me on a Thursday night that she possibly wanted a divorce. The next day I was in my GP's office. I was looking for a solution or at least an answer for my physically low sex drive. Now understand, not all of this issue is biological. I'd say that the far greater portion or our issues are mental or emotionally based. Unfortunately, these issues are not so quickly or easily corrected.
My GP checked me for low test. and found the culprit to my physical problems. The following week I met with a urologist and was placed on test. replacement therapy. About 2-3 weeks ago I had the test. pellets implanted in my hip. I can honestly say that I can now get a boner so hard that a cat can't scratch it. Don't ask me how I know this, just take my word for it!
My wife has been kept abreast of all of this. She has been given the same material that I was given about this condition. I asked her, at my urologist's request, to go to the last visit with me (when the pellets were implanted)--she wouldn't go.
Our sole sex problem is no longer physical. She has been crushed emotionally (her words) because for seven years I did nothing sexual with her. She's pissed as hell that it took this, the threat of divorce, to get me off of my ass and look into this problem (again, her words). Yep, I have agreed to all of that and have told her so. She doesn't like to hear that for seven years she also did not do a thing to address this issue. I have expressed to her my complaints about the way I have been treated in our relationship going back about nine years, and have told her that until those issues are worked on and corrected we still wouldn't be smoking the sheets. Guess what, it's all my damn fault (her words).
As far as the marriage counseling goes, that's a question our counselor would have to answer. This lady, counselor, came highly recommended by my GP (a man that I have full confidence in). I called a few other counselors in our area to get their views on this woman and was told that she had an excellent track record and was great at her business. I certainly did not want a quack for this.
She was so booked up that I was told that she didn't have an opening until Feb., remember that this all occured in late Nov.-early Dec. I asked my GP to see what he could do. The counselor, not her receptionist, called me that same week and we scheduled appointments for my wife and myself the following week. It was the counselors call to see us individually in the initial stages of this. Hell, it was all for naught as my wife wouldn't go again after the second visit. She would only go back if we used the counselor as a mediator. I hired an attorney fot that.
"You sound like a bully." ------ Can you read? If so, can you understand what you've read? Bully, that's me. That's definitely the role I've been playing for the last several years, no doubt about that. If I would have been more assertive with my wife over the years you and I would have never spoken here.
"How tough will you be when she has the law on her side? The fact of the matter is that she will probably have a slam dunk case against you for child custody. You will get visitation rights and some say over guardianship issues. Even though she earns more than you, you will still have to pay some level of child support. It doesn’t sound good does it? Cold day in hell or not, you better ask yourself how tough you can really be when the constable shows up at your door to enforce the court order. Whether its fair or not, whether it sucks or not, whether it screws the dads or not, that’s the way it is, and not even almighty you can change it. So if you don’t like the reality of all this, maybe you better get a grip and start using your brain, rather than your brawn." ---------- Are you a licensed, practicing divorce attorney in the state of Mississippi? Do you have a through understanding of the divorce process and statutes in the state of Mississippi? Have I hired you as my legal counsel? When you meet these qualifications, I'll seek your advice on legal matters.
Man, you are so lost when it comes to me. Angry, you're right, but do you think that I'd let my anger get in the way of my working on my marriage? You don't know me guy and I understand that, but man you're jumping into left field on your assumptions. Do you think I go to my wife angrily, and try to solve problems? Do I really sound to you that I'm an immature chest thumping moron that doesn't know how to behave or get the job done? I hope you're not a shrink because your patients would be SOL with your insight.
"Just worry about changing you. Now that’s smart, don’t you think?" --------- Wow, I never thought of that. I've only written in several posts that that is exactly what I'm doing at this time.
I also know that I will not go back to what we've had over the last several years which means that we're both going to have to change.
"Nope, just you have to change." ------------ Wrong there buddy, two people make a marriage, not one. It's not thought of as the joining of TWO lives for nothing.
"So how important is this to you? What price are you willing to pay for it? I bet you would pay $20,000 to change your wife, if it could be done. But I bet you wouldn’t pay $10 to change yourself. Did you get anything out of individual counseling at all, or were you just trying to convince the counselor that you are right and your wife is wrong. Maybe you couldn’t get than stupid headshrinker to see things your way so you dumped him/her and came to this board to seek justification. It doesn’t look like that was too smart of a move either." --------- I think I posted something earlier about people making assumptions. Do you really think that I need someone like you, or anyone here, to justfy or validate my feelings? Friend, you think very highly of yourself and this medium.
Cobra, I'm not here to defend my actions, whether they have been good or bad, right or wrong, smart or stupid. Whatever they have been (past tense, it means in the past), I cannot change them now. I'm also not here to waste my time sparring with idiots. I came here looking for solid advice as to actions I could take to possibly rectify my marital issues. Some people here have given me terrific, specific advice that's realistic and workable (see BF's and Corri's posts as examples). If you will read and understand my replies to these people you will see that I have taken bits of their advice (the parts that I think will be benificial to my marriage, not me, but to my marriage), and that I am going to (future tense, it means in the future) put their advice into play. If this crap that you're bringing is the best you've got, I really don't appreciate it and I certainly don't need it. If you have something productive to say, then by all means say it. If you want to call me on something, then by all means do it, but please read and understand what I have written before you jump to conclusions. Please address issues that you know of and not issues that you've assumed to be there.
Do I really sound to you that I'm an immature chest thumping moron that doesn't know how to behave or get the job done?
This is EXACTLY the way you come across here. I don't know how you come across in person.
And yes, there are two people in a marriage. And yes, YOU are the one who has to change. Why? Two reasons: 1) Because you are the one who is here asking the questions. If your wife were here posting, we would be telling her that SHE is the one who has to change. 2) You cannot change her; you can only change you.
I'm not posting any more on your thread, because your attitude is way above my level of tolerance for obnoxiousness. Note my number of posts-- I'm not a newby at this. Lose the attitude, buddy. That's my first and last comment to you.
