Ive seen lots of women comfortable with men like that, Ive just never seen one that wanted to have his babies. \:\) never mind me cobra, just nitpicking, that was good.
You are absolutely correct and it is not nit picking. I think this is very important because the contradiction can be very confusing to the man. It was to me. From my own experience, when we were dating, it seemed that my W was very attracted to men but really hated the “machismo” types. She still does. The top of the surface issues were clear to her - find someone who is not like her father, who is caring and sensitive (this sounds completely opposite to me, but at the time it was a large part of how I came off, believe it or not!)
Since she and I were not committed, she could respect my boundaries and I hers. All dating couples do this at first. There is not risk. I believe it was easier for her to express her natural feminine qualities (since there were few defenses) and the idea of kids was somewhere in those feelings, even though she proclaims to this day that as a single woman she never thought she would have children. No, I didn’t believe that one at the time either, because her body language and actions said the opposite. By that I mean she seemed consistent with the way other women acted who I knew wanted to eventually have a family.
Later, after we got thrown into the foxhole together by her pregnancy, the anxiety started to set in. Now we both felt “trapped” and the need to sooth those anxieties began to override respect for early boundaries. As confrontation rose, so did the boundaries and the defenses.
But this was normal for both her and myself. I can think of plenty of other women who would walk away from such a situation because it would be too scary and uncomfortable for them. It was not so for both of us. We had both been there before. This where I believe she has learned to respect me for standing up to her, but not out of a direct respect for strength, but rather a hatred of the weakness in her parents that caused her to be hurt as a child. Being attracted to strength can also mean being able to ignore emotionality.
So on one hand my W wants the empathic and caring man, but on the other too much compliance and “wimpiness” really turns her off. She wants me to be vulnerable, but knows that in exchange she must be vulnerable and that is just not something she is comfortable feeling. So the lesser discomfort is to be attracted to strength.
I think all this is consistent with the idea that on the inside my W and MrsHD, are all mush, soft and vulnerable, but on the outside they are tough and hard. The contradictions of that internal dilemma expresses in their thinking, emotions and actions.
Hairdog,
As you experienced last night, each time your wife lashes out at you, try to see how it is just another scale on her armor plating coming loose, and you know the vulnerability that lies beneath, even though it is unspoken. I think there is value in completely ignoring the armor and speak directly to the vulnerability. In fact, with my wife, that is EXACTLY what she was wanting – someone to rescue her WITHOUT her having to acknowledge her weakness in the first place. Once I understood this, I could also make sense of why such a supposedly strong woman would also play the victim/martyr role. Ego has a lot to do with it.
But in this really stupid, backward way, speaking to her vulnerability is the language she wants to hear and to which she seems to respond, AS LONG AS IT IS NOT PATRONIZING (remember that ego). It is a TOUGH task to undertake and you will not only fall off that path but want to jump off as far as you can get. Yet that very path is where you will find your real source of power.
I think "discern" has many meanings, including the one you give it, Fran. It could be to "separate rejection from hesitation." It could also mean, "perceive her hesitancy as rejection, but don't take it personally." That's what I got from it, based, in part, on the lead-in sentence: If she says NO. say ok, and go out of the room. Discern rejection from hesitancy.
Dude! "No" means no. Anything else doesn't mean no. Work on your "I know you want to", expectant look. If you have an "I know you want to, don't you?" look, expunge it.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Guys, I get what "discern" means, and I understand the difference between the definition of "rejection" and "hesitancy." What I want him to explain is, HOW can you tell the difference, and what are you supposed to do with that knowledge?
I'm sensing there's something REALLY GOOD in that statement, and maybe I classified all "hesitancy" as "rejection" in my marriage, I don't know. I just want him to expound upon it.
and maybe I classified all "hesitancy" as "rejection" in my marriage, I don't know
Yes Im certain that you do, from a time you related your wifes description of you a long time ago.
Fran has it. Hd doesnt, though it was because of my literary skills. Burgbud has it. Though discerning ...No(hehe) from NO is important to. see your thread choco.
Okay. I'm sorry, Lillie. Here's what BF posted about it, over on choc's thread:
Quote:
about discerning rejection from hesitancy...
rejection is a personal right. Its never about you. Its about them. Its about how they feel. Allways acknowledge a personal right.
Hesitancy is simply because a woman needs several things. She needs to know you are sure. She is receptive, not instigating (although when they are hot for you it seems like it, because most are not aware of what is instigating)and her hesitancy allows her to be receptive. Its a test. Do you personalize ('you never want to have sex with me, you dont love me' [pout], who kicked the dog again...), or do you 'know'? She needs to know she is safe. If you become --insert negative emotion here -->(irritated,hurt,pout,angry) she is not safe enough to expose herself to you. You lose.
is any of this reading going to assist you with changing your actions? What will? Find your confidance inside you. Remember what caused it in the past and instigate it in yourself. Its your job.
On that note about becoming irritated, hurt, pout, angry; mea culpaThis is one of the things she points at when she says that she doesn't feel "safe" enough. Hearing it from you, BF, gives it more validity. However, the fact that I was irritated or pouting or depressed or whatever, after the nth time she said "no", and not the previous x times, gets lost in the fray.
Which is why I just need to let all that sh!t go, and concentrate on being the irresistible, unflappable, coolest stud on earth that I can be. Because all that baggage and resentment just plain cramps my style.
That's EXACTLY it, HD -- quite simply, it goes like this:
Woman: "You are not sexy to me, because you are not confident." Man: "But I am not confident, because I am not sexy to you and you've therefore rejected (or avoided) me sexually."
If THAT, and the following, aren't the world's two biggest proofs that GOD HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR, I don't know what is.
Woman: "In order to want to have sex with you, I need for our relationship to be strong." Man: "I need to have sex with you in order for our relationship to be strong."
While I am currently wallowing in the pit just like you, I am "storing up my energy" for a leap out of the pit sometime soon. Of course, our pits are a bit different in character.
Quote:
Woman: "In order to want to have sex with you, I need for our relationship to be strong." Man: "I need to have sex with you in order for our relationship to be strong."
Think about those two statements in the context of dating. The woman's statement now sounds reasonable, while the man's does not. If that pair of statements is a truism, how is that men and women are able to get past the dating stage? Or could it be that to break out of our funks we need to treat our wives like we are dating them, when we had the strength to forge a good R from nothing without sex being necessary? Let me put it another way, if I were dating and a woman said that first statement to me, I would see it as a challenge. Why is it in my M I see it as a repudiation?
Choc, I think one of our problems also is that if my W was instead a GF that I was dating, and she acted the way she is right now (well, let's move back to the way she was acting just prior to my A so that we don't muddy this issue with that complication that is uniquely mine) I wouldn't want to continue dating her. But the question that then nags at my mind is "what if she is acting this way only because of the way I am acting?" I do think very strongly that I ignored warning signs when I was dating my wife due to my low self-esteem and thoughts that this was my only chance. However, I also wonder if maybe I was acting differently in some subtle way, which prodded her to act differently in some subtle way, so that things really were somewhat better back then. KWIM?
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
