Afterall....This IS my Life III

[heatherg]

You can't fix this marriage with one foot out the door, for it doesn't give either one of you the assurance that you need to hang in there

I completely understand and I agree. That's why it's not fair to anybody to continue in this M until I am sure I can be in for the long haul. There is much work to do to get to that point, but I am willing to engage in the work. Despite the letter, I still don't know if he is. He's going to stay. While I do find some comfort in that, physical presence is not enough to make a M work. Granted, it's a start. But this isn't the start for us either, we've been at this for quite some time.

I think this letter from your H is... his last ditch effort to get you to stay.

Corri, you have no idea how elated I was to see an email from him in my inbox. It's only the second I've received since this has all started. So, I know it definitely means something. However, I need you guys to help me stay true to myself while I try to patch this up. I would love nothing more than to say give up this separation thing and give him a big hug. But I know I'll be right back in the same spot if we don't address the issues.

At this point, I don't know that you are going to get deep declaration of his love for you... but he IS willing to stay in the fox hole with you.

I don't need a deep declaration, but I have to know he wants to be with me. Not just for the kids, it's not enough.

you are BOTH right, actually. Look where that has taken you, eh?

Amen!

In his own way, I think your H told you... "I'm committed."

Perhaps. OTOH, it's really no different than what he's said all along. He's here because he doesn't want to ruin the kids' lives. While I respect that and feel the same way, staying for the kids happens to work out better for him than it does for me for a multitude of reasons. I'm far too sensitive to continue living like I've been living and be happy.

He's not going to declare his love for you, for in his mind, you are on your way out the door, and that would make him WAAAYYYY too vulnerable.

I would take anything that showed he wanted to be with me . Staying in a situation like we are in under the premise he's created is akin to getting married because you're pregnant. There has to be more there or you at least need two people who are willing to make it into more.

You've got what you've been hoping for, I think.

Do you really think so? Really, really?

[heatherg]

I don't want it to seem like I'm not really grateful for the opportunity to at least communicate with H. Make no mistake, I am THRILLED!!!!
But I need a plan. I've been in this way too long operating on emotion and apparently jerking everybody around with me. I've got to stop that. I've got to be true to myself even if it hurts. I need NOPS to help me with a plan, a plan I can stick to when my emotions are taking me off track.

[fearless]

Wow Heather!! I don't have much time but wanted to send hugs and good wishes your way with all that is going on.

There's plenty of time for disappointment later. Right now focus on exactly what he wrote (and not on what wasn't written) and see if it rings true. Initially anyway it seems that he took a HUGE step that is unlike anything he has done before. IMHO don't go looking for him to figure it all out all at once. And while a lot of his comments were focused on the kids, which is not a bad thing!, I think he wrote two significant statements about himself and the marriage:

I want a future with hope.

I want to be able look down the path of my life and not see shadows and uncertainty.

It may seem like those were "only" 2 out of 7 statements about your marriage but those statements are all encompassing if you look at it. The statements about the children were explicit while these are much more open ended.

This is always so tricky giving people advice so please take the next comments as just my own personal thoughts. Again keep focused on what you want from all of this.

1) I would immediately let him know, if it's true, that his list of wants is exactly the same as yours. Obviously there are a lot of details behind the "future of hope" and "look down the path... and uncertainty" but leave them as they are at the moment and be glad you agree on SOMETHING.

2) Ignore the provocation of his statements "It seems that you are (or were) waiting for me to commit to this marriage. But the more clear the picture becomes, the more it is evident to me that you have lacked commitment to me for nearly as long as we have been together. From my perspective, you have had one foot out the door at least since you were "Rushing" and hoping that a sorority had a house so you could get away from me. This has become a consistent trend throughout our history. The drinking, the affair, the family alienation, the "stealing of your youth", the porn, the "undermining of parental authority". It seems to me that you have been setting me up to disappoint you throughout our history. Fortunately, throughout all of this (up until this point), I think you have been able to follow your heart, in spite of all the outside influences." (My POV is that you shouldn't immediately get into a debate with him about all of these comments however it's critical for you to consider them and determine how accurately he has stated the issues. Again you don't want to argue about his feelings because they are his feelings whether you really acted the way he says or not)
3) Focus on the fact that he has opened up to what he feels from you. You may not have felt as he has projected but that doesn't mean that he wasn't felt that from you. You could respond that while you have not felt that way (if it’s true) you can understand how he has felt that way and the irony that you have felt so committed to staying with him even when your needs haven't been met.
4)

I have been waiting for you to prove to me that you really are committed to me

I would leave this statement alone for now. Honestly this is the most important and (to me) potentially scary comment that he has made. What is his expectation and definition of commitment? To remove the possibility of divorce off the table after some disturbing treatment of you? I'll be honest there is still a small warning bell in my head that your relationship with your H requires you to always be subjugated to your H. This is an issue that belongs to both of you because you both are involved with perpetuating it. Even your continued overwrought "guilt" over the mistake of your kiss with another man has placed you in your "normal" position of being the one at fault. So even as you struggle to fix this issue, you tend to fall back into old patterns. In my opinion even the truck thing is not as simple as it appears. It appears simple to say "sell the truck" because it affects your H so strongly however with your relationship dynamic this can also backfire by putting you in the role as the one who subjugates to your H. By no means am I saying to not sell the truck; I'm just saying that I don't see this as clear cut a solution as others may. I also recognize the difficulty of trying to establish a stronger self and realizing that you can make mistakes by trying to stand your ground at times.
5)

It seems that you are (or were) waiting for me to commit to this marriage

To go back to this statement in the first paragraph, would it hurt to say YES to this if it's true for you? Ignore the rest of what he wrote for now and answer this directly Yes.
6) Now you both have an interesting and useful topic - how do you define commitment for your marriage. This one again is huge so I'm not sure of the timing for something like this.


This is much longer than I intended and yet it barely covers the depth of the e-mail you just received. Take your time, reply thoughtfully and lovingly, and focus on the issues you agree upon for now.

[Corri]

Heather:

I would take anything that showed he wanted to be with me . Staying in a situation like we are in under the premise he's created is akin to getting married because you're pregnant. There has to be more there or you at least need two people who are willing to make it into more.

(Chuckle)

I'm not laughing at you. The premise he's created.

Sweety, you are putting the cart before the horse. It's like asking a man on the first date if he thinks he 'in love' with you, and what will your first house you buy together look like? And the guy is sitting there thinking, 'whoa, can we get through the first few dates first?"

Whether or not he wants to be with you, you alone, is irrelevant. He wants to be in the same house with you, with your kids. As a woman, that is all you need.

Blackfoot often says that a woman is in charge of the R. And he is right, whether we women like it or not. You may have to put in some very serious time before the R between the two of you kicks in again, but why the hell as the woman would you ever allow HIM to control the R between you? It isn't the man's job, and they are lousy at it anyway. I will give you the current state of the R between you as an example.

He's committed. You can build on that.

You've got what you've been hoping for, I think.

Do you really think so? Really, really?

Absolutely.

That doesn't mean it is going to be easy on you, if you stay. You are going to have to do a major mind/attitude shift if you intend to change the R between the two of you. But, you can do it, if you are willing to surrender power and control. Those two things are not part of a woman's arsenal anyway. They are 'male' in nature.

Let's see what NOP has to say.

Corri

[heatherg]

Nops said:

If he decides that he doesn't want you to sell the truck and that the issue of other man is no longer a factor, then give him the web link and ask him to remove the listing. If he should choose that course of action, that will be the time to discuss your taking your proper place back in the family, with appropriate treatment from him.

I'm thinking now is the time to discuss me taking my proper place back in the family with appropriate treatment from him.

[fearless]

After reading responses so far and your responses to them, I still feel like my approach would be a shorter response to him and doing it sooner than later. I would keep it short for several reasons:
1) to make sure you say nothing that you would later feel a need to backtrack from. (That is not good for either of you in this state)

2) It opens the door for him to elaborate further

3) a fairly quick response shows enthusiasm from you.

And I would just quickly write and focus on what you agree about. You can always write more later!
1) You have the same list of wants for the marriage,
2) you agree that you are looking for commitment from him,
3) Reading him write about what he feels was moving to you and was a huge step toward what you have wanted - an opportunity for both of you to get what you want in your marriage.

Oh and I'm afraid my comment about the truck will be taken out of context. I really think that getting rid of it is an important last ditch effort to show your commitment to staying married. The only reason I commented about it was because of the dynamic between Heather and her H.

I also want to state an assumption I have made about you and your marriage so my comments can be read in that context. I do not think that having your H willing to stay married to you as is enough for you. You may have gotten to this point by acting badly (kissing another man) but regardless you did need to push boundaries in your marriage for your own sake. If this is not correct, then just read my comments appropriately and adjust for their leaning.

By the way, I loved that line Corri quoted. (Dennis Quaid played that character perfectly) I am just not so sure it is most applicable to your marriage right now. There are plenty of people that believe that commitment to a marriage only means not divorcing and not sleeping with others. But I do not know that I believe that fully covers it for me, I think there has to be room for caring for the other person, respecting them, etc. And that is what I like about the analogy "Find a woman you can be in the foxhole with" - this implies that you have trust and comfort with that person - and "keep your dick in you pants when you are out of the foxhole" implies the discipline to stick with the original commitment. What I worry about for you is that your H does not show the level of commitment that you want. I guess I do not take his letter as a sign of commitment. But I still see the letter as incredibly significant and most importantly it opens better communication opportunities between the two of you than I have been aware. There was not much of a chance for the marriage while you were not communicating so this is an incredible breakthrough.

[heatherg]

I'm sure it is easy to read in the faces of family and friends, in how they interact with him, and he is sensitive to it for sure.

Maybe. He's shown his butt several times in front of my family since this all happened and that doesn't help either.

Unfortunately, someone usually does have to go first, and go first MANY times before the other one takes their turn

That's when two people want different things. If we both agree we want the M, then we both have to try. If you and your wife both wanted sex, then you both need to participate right?

There is hard, and sometimes crappy, work that will need to be done. Are you willing to do what it takes?

Yes.

[heatherg]

Ugh. My mind is going a mile a minute, quite literally. This email sure has taken me through the range of emotions.

Right now I want to scream "AND WERE YOU COMMITTED TO ME AND OUR M WHEN YOU WERE DRINKING 6 NIGHTS A WEEK....OR HOW ABOUT WHEN I WENT INTO LABOR WITH S6 AND YOU WOULDN'T STOP DRINKING....IS THAT COMMITMENT???????"

Shame on me for not being sure whether I needed to accept that as part of the deal!!!

[NOPkins]

Hi, Heather.

Quote:
---------------------------------------
I'm thinking now is the time to discuss me taking my proper place back in the family with appropriate treatment from him.
---------------------------------------

Exactly.

Here is what you want from him; You say you want the same things, BUT, you must build a new relationship with the pain and hurts from the past, dead. No more punishment for your affair, etc. This is a basic tenant for the new relationship.

You need to sit down with your husband face to face, and with no harsh words, no screaming, or fighting, and work out what both of you desire from your new relationship.

I am still on my first cup of coffee (late night), but I will closely look over the letter. In the mean time, set up a formal time (with no distractions) to meet with your hubby to discuss the matters at hand.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[NOPkins]

Hi, Heather.

Here's more.

During your meeting, here are the rules.

No disrespectful judgments.

No disrespect.

No accusations.

Just calm respectful statements of your desires for the relationship.

You are negotiating a new relationship. That means that you state your wishes for the new relationship, not make demands.

If the air begins to fill with frustration, take a break. If you need to, then break the meeting into multiples over a span of days.

The goal is to find out if both of you can reasonably continue in the relationship, and if not to come to an agreement for amicably ending the relationship.

Are you following me on this approach?

All the best,
-NOPkins-